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    This motion isn't very clear. It's a bit "three-for-the-price-of one" - there's "This House thinks Thatcher did more harm than good", "This House disapproves of a state funeral for Margaret Thatcher", and a "This house thinks the BBC should not have censored Ding-Dong, the Witch is Dead". I think that support for the 2nd and even the 3rd would be rather higher than that of the 1st, even amongst the TSR right, and suggest that the motion be split up in a second reading. It'd be a shame to see a potential loss for particularly the 2nd simply through trying to do too much at once.
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    Don't know if I'm allowed to post on this as I haven't before, but nay, on a number of reasons:

    This has a clearly anti-Thatcher agenda and is more an attack on Thatcher than the funeral itself and secondly the woman ran the country for 11 years and defended our assets abroad.
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    (Original post by Calllu-m)
    Don't know if I'm allowed to post on this as I haven't before, but nay, on a number of reasons:
    You're definitely allowed to post! The more comments we get the better.

    This has a clearly anti-Thatcher agenda and is more an attack on Thatcher than the funeral itself and secondly the woman ran the country for 11 years and defended our assets abroad.
    She ran the country for 11 years, yes, but I'm not sure why exactly the duration someone is in office merits them a ceremonial funeral - particularly of the level Thatcher will be receiving. It breaks all past precedent and in doing so acts as a slight to many of the other postwar Prime Ministers, all of whom also did what they thought was the best thing for their country. When you combine this break with tradition with cost for the funeral, for which even the smallest estimates place at £2.5 million, the arguments against a ceremonial funeral, or at least one of this scale, seem very much in doubt.

    There's also the worrying extent to which the pomp and ceremony is being used to "canonize" Margaret Thatcher. It is important that we remember she was a divisive figure who was both loved and hated. If we forget that she was hated, and if we ignore that part of the annals of history, then we risk ignoring some real problems which were expressed through that dislike. While some of that vehemence may be distasteful, it is indicative of a deeper problem which needs addressing by society.
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    Aye, Spending 10 Million is too much, and it's ridiculous she gets a state funeral, but not for Clement Atlee.
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    Today the weather will be wet and windy in most of Scotland, Wales and the north, and in the south dry with some sunny spells in places. Seems an appropriate metaphor for Margaret Thatcher's impact.
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    Simply put, it doesn't matter if whoever wrote it is 'anti-Thatcher' or not. We shouldn't be spending so much money on a figure who half of everyone thinks did tremendous damage to this country - it's just not appropriate.

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Given your mention of austerity, is it not worth £10 million (a small amount of government money and offset by the Thatcher family) to allow a couple of thousand people to have a good day out and remember her.
    A funeral as a 'good day out'? :holmes:
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    This is nothing more than a thinly veiled attack on Margaret Thatcher and her policies.

    No.
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    Aye - I've never liked Thatcher for all the tourment she caused during her moment of madness. We are still living with the legacy of her outragous policies and weird style & approach to politics, the RL Tory/Lib Dem government seem to be going down the same route with less impact...

    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Today the weather will be wet and windy in most of Scotland, Wales and the north, and in the south dry with some sunny spells in places. Seems an appropriate metaphor for Margaret Thatcher's impact.
    :lol:
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    23 things you could pay for with £10 million:

    (Original post by The Guardian)
    272 secondary school teachers
    Based on a median annual salary of £36,789

    320 fire officers
    Based on a median annual salary of £31,258

    269 paramedics
    Based on a median annual salary of £37,164

    Four months' worth of the state's contribution to the Monarchy
    Per year it costs the UK £32m

    7,042 households' electricity and gas bills
    Based on a typical annual dual fuel bill of £1,420 each

    25,773 households' annual water bills
    £388 per household average

    44 libraries
    £963,284,000 spent on libraries in 2011-12 - for 4,265 'service points'

    177,777 jobseekers' allowance claimants
    On £56.25 a week each

    1,199 students' annual tuition fees
    Average tuition fees are £8,338

    10 days of arts spending
    Annual spending on the arts for a year: £398m

    Two years of UK foreign aid to Iraq
    It costs the UK £5m a year

    Two and a half Leveson Inquiries
    The cost of the Inquiry was £3.9m

    Two weeks of the BBC World Service
    The annual FCO spending on the World Service is £255m

    Two years of the Wales Office
    It costs the UK £5m a year

    152 MPs' basic salaries
    Before allowances, this is £65,738 each

    16,949,152 pints of milk - enough to give everyone in London two pints each
    Based on a price of 59p each

    60% of a Trident missile
    Cost: £16.8m each

    49 days of British forces in the Falklands
    Based on annual spending of £75m

    Flights for everyone in the Falklands to the UK and back and a trip up the Shard each. Three times over
    Return flight (plus tax): £1,208, Shard: £24.95

    400 black Asprey 'Margaret Thatcher' handbags
    Her handbag shown above sold for £25,000 at auction

    6,079 duck houses for MPs claiming on expenses
    The amount that former Conservative MP Peter Viggers claimed for a floating duck house was £1,645

    11,111 public health funerals
    These are free funerals for poor people or those without any relatives or money, each costs the state £900
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ral-10-million
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    (Original post by rsplaya)
    I agree with Birchington I don't support the state spending £10 million on funerals but this motion has turned into an attack against Thatcher. There is nothing to be gained by attacking political decisions that took place this long ago. I do not agree with censorship and the song should have been played.
    (Original post by Tactical Nuclear Penguin)
    It comes across as a mad rant rather than a serious motion, so a Nay from me.

    In any case I don't think not playing the full length of a joke music track, which didn't get to that position in the chart because it's a good song is wrong, nor was it censorship.
    (Original post by Krack)
    I am 100% against this, this is merely an aimless rant that appears to attack everyone and everything, you also seem to think that the free market does not have censorship when in-fact it does thus it is not against the free market views Thatcher stood for.
    (Original post by Birchington)
    If this was purely opposed to the taxpayer-funded funeral, I'd vote for this motion. However, I don't agree with the anti-Thatcher rant contained within so it's a no from me.
    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    This is nothing more than a thinly veiled attack on Margaret Thatcher and her policies.

    No.
    You all seem to have missed the point. This motion is an attack on the politics of Margaret Thatcher. If there was nothing to attack in her legacy then none of us would have any complaint about holding a state-sponsored ceremonial funeral for her.

    As it is, though, her government dealt tremendous and tangible damage to this country. This damage cannot be ignored - its consequences have continued on to this day in the form of the mass unemployment of the last three decades, and the perpetual depression in the local economies of Wales and the North. Stagnating incomes for the poor, and the widening inequality that it effects, is all thanks to the outrageous curtailment of workers' right that she set in motion. She closed profitable mines just to weaken the unions. The Thatcher government chose to make the Falklands liable to attack from Argentina by removing its defences. The Thatcher government deregulated the banks, precipitating the financial crisis of 2007. The Thatcher government persecuted homosexuals like myself by denigrating our lifestyles as immoral and dangerous to children. The Thatcher government labelled Mandela a 'terrorist' and stood on the wrong side of history by refusing to back punishments for apartheid South Africa. The Thatcher government assisted the Khmer Rouge by providing them with support that they later utilised for genocide in North Cambodia. The Thatcher government privatised public services, leading to massive private monopolies, inefficiency, and price rises. The Thatcher government did bad things, and that's why she should not be the first PM since Churchill to receive a state funeral.
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    Thatcher wasn't perfect but a great deal of the anti-Thatcher rhetoric I've seen since she died, including most of your post, is baseless hyperbole. I agree, the impact of some of her policies was socially destructive but she cut inflation, gave millions of Britons the chance to own their own home and tackled Britain's decline how she saw fit. Furthermore, she had the mandate to enact these changes as the British people clearly voted again and again for her policies. Contrast this with the behaviour of trade unions during the 1970s - a 3 day week, the threat of power cuts, bodies lying unburied because greed got the better of them. Similarly destructive acts that did not have a democratic mandate. It's impossible to claim any sort of moral highground in this debate - good and bad things have happened on the left and right of politics.

    I'm personally against a taxpayer funded funeral - if your motion had just condemned that rather than Thatcher herself, you might have gained more support.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    No. This has become purely a rant and in many ways is a very disappointing start to the term. Toning down the bile might have got support from some people, but it was always going to be a no from me.
    Disappointing? I'm guessing you haven't just used that word because you don't agree with this? :holmes:

    (Original post by TopHat)
    It'd be a shame to see a potential loss for particularly the 2nd simply through trying to do too much at once.
    It is true that this motion would get more support if split up, but I don't think it matters whether this passes or not. I don't think a motion like this needs to gain consensus. It's a strong statement on Thatcher's funeral arrangements and her legacy and the Socialists shouldn't feel the need to split up the motion or water it down to get centrist/right-wing support.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    You all seem to have missed the point. This motion is an attack on the politics of Margaret Thatcher.

    The Thatcher government privatised public services, leading to massive private monopolies, inefficiency, and price rises.
    You do however appear to be attacking Thatcher, you could have just simply stated you are against the funeral being paid for by the state and be done with it but you chose to go on an aimless rant.

    Mass monopolies? I hope you understand that the state providing services and not letting anyone else do so is also a monopoly, she didn't create mass monopolies either, natural monopolies do occur however I cannot find evidence of your mass monopolies and as for so-called inefficiency? have you worked with the NHS or any governmental department? I have and they are the biggest failures of efficiency there is and they were not privatised under Thatcher.

    I have no issue with your criticisms, I do however have an issue with your inaccuracies.
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    Undecided on this. Sounds too much like a rant for an aye but too close to my opinions for a nay. I shall abstain on this.
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    Tell you what rightys...
    You pass this and i'll let you keep 60% of one of your beloved trident missiles :lol:

    In all seriousness though, 272 secondary school teachers sounds like a much better deal and would actually help somewhat.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    You all seem to have missed the point. This motion is an attack on the politics of Margaret Thatcher. If there was nothing to attack in her legacy then none of us would have any complaint about holding a state-sponsored ceremonial funeral for her.

    As it is, though, her government dealt tremendous and tangible damage to this country. This damage cannot be ignored - its consequences have continued on to this day in the form of the mass unemployment of the last three decades, and the perpetual depression in the local economies of Wales and the North. Stagnating incomes for the poor, and the widening inequality that it effects, is all thanks to the outrageous curtailment of workers' right that she set in motion. She closed profitable mines just to weaken the unions. The Thatcher government chose to make the Falklands liable to attack from Argentina by removing its defences. The Thatcher government deregulated the banks, precipitating the financial crisis of 2007. The Thatcher government persecuted homosexuals like myself by denigrating our lifestyles as immoral and dangerous to children. The Thatcher government labelled Mandela a 'terrorist' and stood on the wrong side of history by refusing to back punishments for apartheid South Africa. The Thatcher government assisted the Khmer Rouge by providing them with support that they later utilised for genocide in North Cambodia. The Thatcher government privatised public services, leading to massive private monopolies, inefficiency, and price rises. The Thatcher government did bad things, and that's why she should not be the first PM since Churchill to receive a state funeral.
    I am not from the north, I was not alive during Thatcher's years and to be quite honest nobody I know was badly affected. I will not be supporting this it is pure propaganda politics at its worse.
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    (Original post by Krack)
    You do however appear to be attacking Thatcher, you could have just simply stated you are against the funeral being paid for by the state and be done with it but you chose to go on an aimless rant.

    Mass monopolies? I hope you understand that the state providing services and not letting anyone else do so is also a monopoly, she didn't create mass monopolies either, natural monopolies do occur however I cannot find evidence of your mass monopolies and as for so-called inefficiency? have you worked with the NHS or any governmental department? I have and they are the biggest failures of efficiency there is and they were not privatised under Thatcher.

    I have no issue with your criticisms, I do however have an issue with your inaccuracies.
    (Original post by rsplaya)
    I am not from the north, I was not alive during Thatcher's years and to be quite honest nobody I know was badly affected. I will not be supporting this it is pure propaganda politics at its worse.
    I literally cannot believe that I'm having this argument with two people who claim to be left-wing.

    Rsplaya - are you incapable of empaphising with people who were affected by the Thatcher government? Are you incapable of looking over the facts and reaching a rational conclusion, proportionate to the evidence available, about the Thatcher government? Are you incapable of supporting your claim that all of my argument is 'propaganda' with any counter-arguments of your own? If the answer is yes, I look forward to your response. If the answer is no, I hope that you leave the Green Party and **** off to the Tories. Being left-wing means being compassionate and scientific in our attitudes to policy and the past, and above all else, other people.

    Krack - the entire basis of left-wing politics is that greater democracy is a good thing. When the people control public services, public services are run in the interests of the people - regardless of whether they are monopolies or not. When a monopoly is controlled by a private corporation, a private tyranny, its only interest is in exploiting the maximum amount of profit from the people reliant on its services. That is the difference between a nationalised monopoly and a private one. Inefficiency is found in both the public and private spheres. Thatcher created private monopolies in energy, telecoms, and water; the water system in the UK remains a monopolised, whilst the energy system is subject to the same problems due to the cartel agreement between the largest firms. Energy and water costs have risen dramatically above inflation over the last three decades. Telecoms would remain the same had the monopoly not been broken by the advancement of technology.

    (Original post by Miracle Day)
    QFA
    Is there anything about my post that you specifically disagree with?
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    (Original post by rsplaya)
    I am not from the north, I was not alive during Thatcher's years and to be quite honest nobody I know was badly affected. I will not be supporting this it is pure propaganda politics at its worse.
    Thats pretty bad reasoning to be honest...
    I don't know anybody who survivied the Holocaust but it happened and impacted on the world netherless.
    As for having to be from the north to agree to on this motion and dislike Thatcher, it is complete nonsense.
    I assume you agree with wasting £10 million then?
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    I'll be saying a no.

    As others have said, this is nothing more than a rant. If it had a more coherant focus on the funeral rather than go off on one, then I might have been more sympathetic to what was put forward.
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    (Original post by nixonsjellybeans)
    Thats pretty bad reasoning to be honest...
    I don't know anybody who survivied the Holocaust but it happened and impacted on the world netherless.
    As for having to be from the north to agree to on this motion and dislike Thatcher, it is complete nonsense.
    I assume you agree with wasting £10 million then?
    No like i said in my first post I disagree with having a state funeral and the censorship from the BBC. To celebrate a person's death who represented our country as effective head of state (I don't count those dastardly royals) is disrespectful. Can you name a single prime minister or individual that didn't negatively affect somebody in some way? You shouldn't celebrate the deaths of anybody including your enemies, why are you so full of hate?
 
 
 
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