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    (Original post by coconut2456)
    Will a child definitely not die if given insulin? No. It's not just a case of deaths. Being unvaccinated significantly increases your risk of an infection and that in turn can lead to other complications like pneumonia and ear infections which can lead to deafness. It's the responsibility of the parent to ensure that their child is adequately protected. It's also important to consider the impact of their decision on society as a whole. Through their choice, which is often based on little evidence, they are impeding the eradication of the disease and making their child pose a greater danger to others.
    Pretty sure a diabetic will die without insulin?

    Also vaccinations are not risk free. It's a case of weighing up the risk, and deciding what is best for the individual. What's right for one person isn't right for someone else.

    If that's your argument then I guess you'll be ok with the parent having complete control over their child, even when they don't have their best interests in mind? If the child has cancer and the parent refuses chemotherapy, you'd find it unacceptable to force the child to have it regardless? What if they have a form of cancer which is easily treatable but the parent still refuses?
    Wait what? That's a massive jump. Not if the child will die without it, obviously. But if say, a headache. Say a child has a headache. Would you make paracetamol compulsary and prosecute those who prefer to wait it out? That's the same kind of logic.

    Doctors can force the child of a JW to have a blood transfusion if their condition is life-threatening and it is deemed that the parent doesn't have the child's best interests in mind. Where is your source that they can't?
    Anecdotal, my mum works in a hospital and has seen it. Apologies if it's wrong. From what I understand, they have to go to court to force it, and if it's something like a car crash often the kid dies while waiting.
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    (Original post by moonkatt)
    Nope. The hospital can and will if there is time, go to court to make the child a ward of the court and give that child the treatment it needs to keep it alive regardless of their parents beliefs, the exception would be if that child was assessed to be Gillick competent and was refusing the treatment.
    But that's if there is time.
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    (Original post by civilstudent)
    Ive just been reading this and the arguments for and against mandatory vaccinations. I don't think they should be because as the article says we own ourselves so should have choice but then a counter argument is that being unvaccinated risks the health of others.
    What do you think?
    http://www.policymic.com/articles/20...most-americans
    I don't think it should be compulsory, but obviously it should be strongly encouraged.

    I was MMR'd as a child, but relatively few classmates were (so my mum tells me). Then the MMR controversy came along and even fewer kids in the school were jabbed. However, my parents were never taken in by the daft autism scare, and over the years they've persuaded quite a few friends to get their older children jabbed (for which the jabbees somehow blame me!).
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    Pretty sure a diabetic will die without insulin?

    Also vaccinations are not risk free. It's a case of weighing up the risk, and deciding what is best for the individual. What's right for one person isn't right for someone else.
    I didn't argue against those two points, that's if I assume you're talking about T1D. Insulin in general isn't without its risks.


    Wait what? That's a massive jump. Not if the child will die without it, obviously. But if say, a headache. Say a child has a headache. Would you make paracetamol compulsary and prosecute those who prefer to wait it out? That's the same kind of logic.
    Well you made a pretty massive statement. In some circumstances, the doctors can and should be able to say what goes into your or your child's body. The notion that the state has no say in bringing up your child under any circumstance is flawed.



    Anecdotal, my mum works in a hospital and has seen it. Apologies if it's wrong. From what I understand, they have to go to court to force it, and if it's something like a car crash often the kid dies while waiting.
    Fair enough, it is wrong, though I'm not certain myself over whether doctors can treat in emergency situations and go through the court later on considering there is such a short period in which the child can avoid brain damage/death.
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    (Original post by The_Dragonborn)
    Absolutely yes, as long as the vaccine is confirmed to be safe.
    therein lies the catch...
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    (Original post by coconut2456)
    I didn't argue against those two points, that's if I assume you're talking about T1D. Insulin in general isn't without its risks.
    No, but if it's a choice between death or risks, you take the risks. If it's a choice between one set of risks or a second set of the risks, that's for the person to decide.



    Well you made a pretty massive statement. In some circumstances, the doctors can and should be able to say what goes into your or your child's body. The notion that the state has no say in bringing up your child under any circumstance is flawed.
    Those cases are few and far between. There are extreme examples we could both think of, but general every day things like vaccines, which aren't simple life or death choices, shouldn't be made by doctors. Not no say perhaps, but to go as far as to tell me whether to vaccinate my child or not. Are you going to prosecute me if my child is fat? Are you going to caution me for my child not doing her homework? Charge me if she gets detention? You're getting into massive nanny state territory with this.



    Fair enough, it is wrong, though I'm not certain myself over whether doctors can treat in emergency situations and go through the court later on considering there is such a short period in which the child can avoid brain damage/death.
    I'm not fully sure, sorry if what I said wasn't right
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    But that's if there is time.
    Just looked it up, seems the doctor can transfuse anyway. Look at page 13 here

    Not quite sure what led to your mum seeing a child die due to blood transfusion refusal, possibly a failing on the part of the clinicians.

    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    No, but if it's a choice between death or risks, you take the risks. If it's a choice between one set of risks or a second set of the risks, that's for the person to decide.
    Yeah obviously, but you made it sound as though vaccines have risks whilst insulin injections don't.




    Those cases are few and far between. There are extreme examples we could both think of, but general every day things like vaccines, which aren't simple life or death choices, shouldn't be made by doctors. Not no say perhaps, but to go as far as to tell me whether to vaccinate my child or not. Are you going to prosecute me if my child is fat? Are you going to caution me for my child not doing her homework? Charge me if she gets detention? You're getting into massive nanny state territory with this.
    So do you accept that in some cases, doctors/the state can and should determine what goes into your or your child's body? Tbh I'm not arguing that making vaccines compulsory is the right move, but in some cases I've seen parents who continue to think that the MMR vaccine is associated with all of these risks despite evidence suggesting otherwise, education doesn't seem to be working on these parents so maybe something can be done about all of those scaremongering DM articles which seems to influence these parents so much.



    I'm not fully sure, sorry if what I said wasn't right
    It's fine, we learn something new everyday I guess.
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    (Original post by coconut2456)
    Just looked it up, seems the doctor can transfuse anyway. Look at page 13 here

    Not quite sure what led to your mum seeing a child die due to blood transfusion refusal, possibly a failing on the part of the clinicians.
    Oh right, they can sort it legally afterwards. Didn't know that. Perhaps it was an error then, I'd assumed it was standard practice.
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    Nope. I do believe organ donation should be an opt-out system, though.
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    (Original post by civilstudent)
    Ive just been reading this and the arguments for and against mandatory vaccinations. I don't think they should be because as the article says we own ourselves so should have choice but then a counter argument is that being unvaccinated risks the health of others.

    What do you think?

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/20...most-americans
    Yes. I don't care about the bodily autonomy of the people whose collective stupidity has now caused at least one death. It should be a prerequisite of primary education.
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    (Original post by coconut2456)
    Just looked it up, seems the doctor can transfuse anyway. Look at page 13 here

    Not quite sure what led to your mum seeing a child die due to blood transfusion refusal, possibly a failing on the part of the clinicians.
    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    Oh right, they can sort it legally afterwards. Didn't know that. Perhaps it was an error then, I'd assumed it was standard practice.
    There was a case a few years ago in Birmingham where a teenage lad was crushed by a car and was taken to hospital here. He was a Jehovas Witness and because of his beliefs refused blood products, this was also pushed by his family and senior members of his religion also turned up at the hospital to support them. I'm unsure of all the ins and outs, at his age he was probably found to be Gillick competent, there probably wasn't time to go to court to get an injunction to force treatment upon him and he died of his injuries. It's possible he may have died of his injuries anyway, but we will never know.
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    (Original post by TritonSails)
    Yes. I don't care about the bodily autonomy of the people whose collective stupidity has now caused at least one death. It should be a prerequisite of primary education.
    You have a choice to go outside, to socialize with unvaccinated people.that is your prerogative not theirs.

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    (Original post by dannydoy)
    You have a choice to go outside, to socialize with unvaccinated people.that is your prerogative not theirs.

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    Eh?
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    (Original post by moonkatt)
    There was a case a few years ago in Birmingham where a teenage lad was crushed by a car and was taken to hospital here. He was a Jehovas Witness and because of his beliefs refused blood products, this was also pushed by his family and senior members of his religion also turned up at the hospital to support them. I'm unsure of all the ins and outs, at his age he was probably found to be Gillick competent, there probably wasn't time to go to court to get an injunction to force treatment upon him and he died of his injuries. It's possible he may have died of his injuries anyway, but we will never know.
    If he was Gillick competent then I doubt any court would have allowed for him to treated against his will anyway. It's sad but it's one of those things that comes with patient autonomy I guess.
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    (Original post by TritonSails)
    Eh?
    Why should it be upto people to be vacinated. Why shouldn't it be down to peolle to avoid populations if they do not want to come into contact with the infection.

    You are trying to make people take actions to.help you rather than taking actions yourself to protect you.

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    (Original post by coconut2456)
    If he was Gillick competent then I doubt any court would have allowed for him to treated against his will anyway. It's sad but it's one of those things that comes with patient autonomy I guess.
    They may have been able to argue it under the mental capacity act and that his capacity was affected by his clinical condition. I'm not an expert on Gillick, I work with adult patients so rarely come across it.
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    (Original post by dannydoy)
    Why should it be upto people to be vacinated. Why shouldn't it be down to peolle to avoid populations if they do not want to come into contact with the infection.

    You are trying to make people take actions to.help you rather than taking actions yourself to protect you.

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    So you're saying that I should avoid all contact with unvaccinated people to avoid catching the disease. That's a nice idea but there are quite a few problems with that. How do I know who is vaccinated and who is not? People do not wear jackets with 'I didn't take MMR!' written on the back. Secondly, how do I live my life? What if I want to get a job? What if I want to buy things in a shop? There are a lot of things that make it pretty inconvenient for me to studiously avoid all these people for the rest of my life even if I can identify them. But it doesn't even really matter since I am vaccinated and if I ever have kids they'll definitely be vaccinated too. My concern is for the kids of these people who didn't get them vaccinated, kids whose lives are being threatened by their parents' sheer stupidity.

    I'm not asking people to take actions to help me. I'm asking people to help themselves and their kids by taking vaccinations to stop them and their kids from getting these fatal diseases and spreading them to other unvaccinated people. I do not think that people's right not to protect themselves and their young children against fatal diseases is a right that anyone should give a crap about.
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    It shouldn't be compulsary for adults, but parents should never have the right to decide against vaccinating their children or withholding any type of treatment from them. I think it's horrendous that parents actually hold that amount of power over their children's well-being (or lack of).
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    (Original post by TritonSails)
    So you're saying that I should avoid all contact with unvaccinated people to avoid catching the disease. That's a nice idea but there are quite a few problems with that. How do I know who is vaccinated and who is not? People do not wear jackets with 'I didn't take MMR!' written on the back. Secondly, how do I live my life? What if I want to get a job? What if I want to buy things in a shop? There are a lot of things that make it pretty inconvenient for me to studiously avoid all these people for the rest of my life even if I can identify them. But it doesn't even really matter since I am vaccinated and if I ever have kids they'll definitely be vaccinated too. My concern is for the kids of these people who didn't get them vaccinated, kids whose lives are being threatened by their parents' sheer stupidity.

    I'm not asking people to take actions to help me. I'm asking people to help themselves and their kids by taking vaccinations to stop them and their kids from getting these fatal diseases and spreading them to other unvaccinated people. I do not think that people's right not to protect themselves and their young children against fatal diseases is a right that anyone should give a crap about.
    No, that would be absurd, I agree. However it would be your choice if that's what you wanted to do.

    As it is my choice not to take the MMR vaccine.

    My parents decided to give me the MMR vaccine as a chiild (under dodgy government advice which is still being given out, anyway)
    I developed an eye condition because of the MMR, Nystagmous. I am not immune to the Vaccine so far from helping me the vaccine harmed me, I think I have 6/10 vision (12/20) and wobbly eyes.

    It is now my choice not to take the vaccine as it is your choice not to communicate with anyone.

    These are the small prices we must pay for living in a "somewhat" free country
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    [QUOTE=coconut2456;42293928]Just looked it up, seems the doctor can transfuse anyway. Look at page 13 here


    So do you accept that in some cases, doctors/the state can and should determine what goes into your or your child's body? Tbh I'm not arguing that making vaccines compulsory is the right move, but in some cases I've seen parents who continue to think that the MMR vaccine is associated with all of these risks despite evidence suggesting otherwise, education doesn't seem to be working on these parents so maybe something can be done about all of those scaremongering DM articles which seems to influence these parents so much.




    That fine saying that, but when you have been effected first hand it changes the playing field, as I stated in an earlier post I developed a Nystagmous as a result of my first dose of the MMR and am not immune
 
 
 
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