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    (Original post by telephone)
    Could you please explain what it is then.
    It's determined by either nature, or nurture, or a combination of the two

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    I didn't choose the goth life

    The goth life chose me.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    The argument for homosexuality being not being a choice isn't really any stronger than the argument that being part of any minority is genetic. It may only appear stronger because more reasearch has been conducted for it.

    There may be a point I have missed in this discussion however, and I apologise if that is the case. So I invite you to explain why,

    "the comparison of gay people is different"

    is actually different.
    Because sexuality is not a choice...You don't choose to be straight, bi and gay people don't choose to be so.

    Goths (and the like) choose to dress that way...they could stop if they wanted to or had to.
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    As someone who swims around in the alternative culture, I vote it's not genetic. Maybe some people are predisposed to defying social norms - but of course, it is a choice to wear black, just like it's totally a choice for me.

    She says as she sits in her bright pink pajamas. But I digress.

    I still fail to see how this has anything to do with being gay, however.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    You often hear the argument thrown about, that homosexuality cannot be a choice, as why would anyone wish to put themselves is such a position of stigmatisation and abuse.

    Can the argument not likewise be used for other minorities such as the goth subculture. Is it really reasonable to say that someone can genetically be a goth? That their DNA has lead them to wear the black clothes and white makeup that are the source of their marginalisation?
    Are you suggesting that Homosexuals have a choice or that Goths could opt not to be Goths and then they wouldn't be marginalised? Or am I reading too much into the question?

    I don't think the argument can be used for Goths, because you have to distinguish between being a Goth and being marginalised. It is perfectly possible to enjoy being a Goth and not enjoy being marginalised. However, I don't think it can be used for homosexuals in that form either, for exactly the same reasons.

    I do think homosexuality is genetic, for the simple reason that I could imagine wanting to be a Goth, though I don't, but I know I will never be attracted to women. I can't say with certainty whether this is nature or nurture, but my instinct says the former. I agree the argument you have stated doesn't quite work though. It's more like secondary evidence.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Could you please explain what it is then.
    When did you chose to be straight?


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    (Original post by Laurenx123x)
    Because sexuality is not a choice...You don't choose to be straight, bi and gay people don't choose to be so.

    Goths (and the like) choose to dress that way...they could stop if they wanted to or had to.
    As I said earlier, this isn't comparing like for like. You're comparing a preference to an act. Dressing like a goth is an act, being homosexual is a preference.

    It would make more sense to compare having sex/relationships with people of the same sex to dressing like a goth. Or comparing being homosexual to liking goth style clothes.

    We choose our actions based on our preferences. We don't choose our preferences. Obviously being a goth isn't genetic, but when someone gets into the goth subculture they're doing that because for whatever reason they have developed a preference for it.
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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    When did you chose to be straight?


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    Could you answer my original question please.

    The fact that virtually everyone is heterosexual, along with the fact that we are provided with the faculties to reproduce suggests a greater genetic influence than for the opposing argument. Otherwise the whole idea of survival of a species would become quite redundant.
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    Leave them be. They're just doing what makes them miserable.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Could you answer my original question please.

    The fact that virtually everyone is heterosexual, along with the fact that we are provided with the faculties to reproduce suggests a greater genetic influence than for the opposing argument. Otherwise the whole idea of survival of a species would become quite redundant.
    The point is, if it's a choice, when did you chose to be straight?

    The fact that 'virtually everyone' is straight doesn't make being gay a choice. It just makes it less common

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    (Original post by telephone)
    ...someone can genetically be a goth? That their DNA has lead them to wear the black clothes and white makeup that are the source of their marginalisation?
    A genetic goth? :lolz:

    Too funny :top:
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    Maybe, just maybe, they like the look and don't care about what others think about their personal choices. :dontknow:
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    (Original post by telephone)
    Could you answer my original question please.

    The fact that virtually everyone is heterosexual, along with the fact that we are provided with the faculties to reproduce suggests a greater genetic influence than for the opposing argument. Otherwise the whole idea of survival of a species would become quite redundant.
    I chose to be gay just as much as you chose to be straight. It's that simple. Some people are in between. Some people don't fancy anyone sexually at all.

    You can write your theory to fit what you think are the facts but it's not very scientific. Is it?
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    (Original post by wortandbeer)
    who says a person should conform to social norms?
    I didn't.

    The point I was making was the people's genes might influence whether they choose to conform to social norms or not, I'm not here to argue in favour of them doing so.
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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    I chose to be gay just as much as you chose to be straight. It's that simple. Some people are in between. Some people don't fancy anyone sexually at all.

    You can write your theory to fit what you think are the facts but it's not very scientific. Is it?
    In that case you I welcome you to provide some science in order to end this discussion once and for all.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    In that case you I welcome you to provide some science in order to end this discussion once and for all.
    And I welcome you to provide evidence that it's a choice

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    (Original post by telephone)
    In that case you I welcome you to provide some science in order to end this discussion once and for all.
    Burden of proof is on you.


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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    Burden of proof is on you.


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    How can you say that? You are as confident as me in your belief, yet the burden of proof is only on me? No, it is in fact on both of us. I was not the one who brought science into this discussion. My original argument was not even based on science, I was simply pointing out a fallacy in a commonly quoted argument. However, as you requested, I will bring my evidence, and I hope you will kindly join me in bringing yours.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reproduction
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    (Original post by telephone)
    However, as you requested, I will bring my evidence, and I hope you will kindly join me in bringing yours.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_reproduction
    That's not evidence to support the point that being gay is a choice

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    Sexuality is simply not a choice. Partaking in sexual acts that are that way inclined, or taking part of subcultures that revolve around sexuality clearly is.

    Back on the actual topic of conversation, it could be argued that although being a goth, or feeling the urge to be part of any subculture or express any individuality in any way or form, is not genetic (I doubt mother nature made sure the evanescence gene mutated at some point) it does not necessarily mean there is a choice involved. For example, I could be brought up surrounded by a certain genre of music, so much so that I become attached to that genre and don't want to listen to anything else. I have a great urge to listen to that genre, and pretty much do not have a choice to not listen to it because I'll eventually give in to the temptation. In a similar way, some people are socialised into just wanting to be different, and so they may do that by being a goth without feeling they have a choice, because that simply is not them.
 
 
 
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