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    If i get onto my engineering course, i have 25 contact hours and my placement pays for 3/4 of my course

    ENGINEERING FTW!
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    As someone on CS with 20 hours timetabled and 5 exercises a week (each taking a good 3/4 hours each) + the occasional big project. Which is pretty mediocre if you compare that to med/dentistry or other STEMs who easily do double that. It's ridiculous that on philosophy/politics at my university (politics in particular also has no examinations at my university) who have 1 lecture a week and 4 essays a year.

    The essays are typically 3/5k words and my 2 philosophy housemates spend 4/5 days on each and are on track for a solid 2.1. Essentially doing the equivalent of approx 2 weeks of the work of someone on a STEM degree for the whole year.

    The main problem isn't even that people from more involved degrees are getting put into the same graduate employments pools as those from degrees requiring single digits a week study time. Having an entire module based on on a single piece of work is risky as hell, and if you mess it up you can drop a classification. It's just not representative of someones ability to have such a small sample of work to base a degree upon. That and the value for money of the course is abysmal. Having only 1-2 lectures a week + the hours to mark the essays their paying a ridiculous rate for the lecturers time. One of my housemates nearly dropped out because he found the course so uninvolved and hated the fact he spent most of his time at the flat alone while everyone else was doing at least 3 hours a day.

    IMO If the course subject material is that limited that only that amount of time spent is necessary, there really should be more MOMD's (modules from other subjects) to beef up the material, allowing for a more diverse area of study if their main area doesn't require that time.
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    I am all in favour of these new statistics on contact time etc, it gives students important information until recently not available to them. I'm hoping to study History at York, contact time there is 8% equating to 2 hours a week and it comes out bottom of the list, whereas other universities for the same course consider up to three times as much contact time is required, and Cambridge for instance at 17%. Many will be influenced by these figures and I think it will encourage universities to offer more quality tuition time to the arts type subjects, as it is presently the History course at York cannot seriously be considered a full time course and I agree with the Op. Found this interesting reading on a similar theme ..http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3271534.html
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    (Original post by BrainDrain)
    I am all in favour of these new statistics on contact time etc, it gives students important information until recently not available to them. I'm hoping to study History at York, contact time there is 8% equating to 2 hours a week and it comes out bottom of the list, whereas other universities for the same course consider up to three times as much contact time is required, and Cambridge for instance at 17%. Many will be influenced by these figures and I think it will encourage universities to offer more quality tuition time to the arts type subjects, as it is presently the History course at York cannot seriously be considered a full time course and I agree with the Op. Found this interesting reading on a similar theme ..http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3271534.html
    How are the statistics collated? Do they include 'optional' lectures? Do they take account of the different length of term times between institutions (particularly important when considering Oxford or Cambridge). Of course all this doesn't consider the basic requirement for significant amounts of self-study for many courses. To get a first in history I would argue that you really are looking at at least a full-time commitment to self-study along with contact time.

    I personally I'm very suspicious of supposedly simple numbers (i.e. some percentage of time devoted to 'contact') that claim to describe something very complex and subjective (i.e. academic rigour and quality).
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    See The Mail on Sunday May 19th for the full facts about university graduates coming away with nearly £40,000 debts through student loans, and only 15% of graduates able to pay off this debt in their lifetime. What with the increases in the cost of living this paints a dire picture indeed.
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    (Original post by G8D)
    You support paying £9000 to sit in a library with a book you also bought?
    I support humanities students subsidising my time in the lab by sitting the library, yes.

    :smug:
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    The data is collected by HESA...http://www.hesa.ac.uk/content/view/4/54/ a respected organisation, and is in some part collated from students on the relevant courses, in an effort to inform prospective students what is on offer. It is there to help us, whether or not you chose to use it is for you. It seems to me Oxbridge has more or less over the last few hundred years honed the system to what is today considered desirable for the brightest students, that is a fairly intense experience. I would have thought that guys of a lower calibre {myself for instance} require not as is the case at York, less than half the tuition of Oxbridge but extra help, and to be fair other institutes do this as we are now able to discover.
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    (Original post by sultony)
    See The Mail on Sunday May 19th for the full facts about university graduates coming away with nearly £40,000 debts through student loans, and only 15% of graduates able to pay off this debt in their lifetime. What with the increases in the cost of living this paints a dire picture indeed.
    Is it a dire picture? For the government, maybe, but not for those graduates. People ***** and moan about £40k debts but the reality is if they ever pay it off, it has been generally worth it as they have been earning around £40-50k for their whole career pre inflation correction.

    If you don't get value from your degree in terms of employment, you don't pay back all the money. It pretty much operates like a graduate tax.


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    (Original post by sultony)
    With students sometimes only receiving 2.5 hrs contact tuition a week and only having to attend the equivalent of two days per week, it is not a full-time study mode. Yet students can pay £9000 per annum fees, so the first thing they do is look for part-time jobs for the other three days per week to help pay their fees. I would suggest that the universities are mis-selling their 'Full-time' courses and should therefore only charge 2/5ths of the fees. What is your experience?
    Depends what the course is to be honest. I take Classics and I only have 9 hours per week, and most of that is language training in Latin and Ancient Greek. The lectures are there for basic information, you're supposed to do the research yourself. Although I agree the quality of many institutions has not caught up with the fees they are charging, many are still offering only a £3000 experience.
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    (Original post by LexiswasmyNexis)
    Is it a dire picture? For the government, maybe, but not for those graduates. People ***** and moan about £40k debts but the reality is if they ever pay it off, it has been generally worth it as they have been earning around £40-50k for their whole career pre inflation correction.

    If you don't get value from your degree in terms of employment, you don't pay back all the money. It pretty much operates like a graduate tax.


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    I think it is a pretty dire picture. It is the spending capacity that this sucks out of the public. If the government announced that is was going to impose an additional 10% income tax on everyone born after say 1990 on income over £20k (index linked), it would be untenable but that is more or less the effect. The proportion of people with the requisite income but no student debt will not be very high.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I think it is a pretty dire picture. It is the spending capacity that this sucks out of the public. If the government announced that is was going to impose an additional 10% income tax on everyone born after say 1990 on income over £20k (index linked), it would be untenable but that is more or less the effect. The proportion of people with the requisite income but no student debt will not be very high.
    Hm, yes, I hadn't thought about it in that respect.


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    Student loans are good except one idea: because it is attached to inflation, I'm afraid that 30 years time is enough time to have sharp increases in inflation which may result in huge amounts of interest accrued. In other words, all the young people risk on two things: inflation and political parties claim that the debt is written off after 30 years. Considering the current economical climate in the world, it is risky and bold statement. Future generations may break this claim and people may have to pay back their loans if UK economical situation becomes tough.
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    Not think this is true for quite a few courses but I just finished my zoology degree, I had the usual experience many have of contact hours decreasing as you went from year 1,2,3, which I find odd as it is. I'd say I've had between 12 and 16 hours a week throughout the course, though this final year it was often only 8 hours (4 x 2 lectures). Now when I get my degree result in June I'll comment on what degree classification I got, but I didn't do a whole lot of extra reading unless I had an assignment to do, and I'm on track for a 2:1 with some 1sts. I had a part time job at the weekends but realistically, especially if I was single (have been with gf throughout the course and she usually came to stay Tuesday to Wednesday), I'd have had enough time to at least work another full day in the week and probably a half day Tuesday morning. I'm fine paying the old prices, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about £9k a year.
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    I was lucky in the amount of 1-1 contact time I got during my undergrad. But on most courses you essentially pay £9000 for the privilege of sitting that university's exams.
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    (Original post by You Failed)
    You wouldn't say you had zero hours of school just because most of those hours were sat listening to the teacher, so why would you not include those hours for lectures.
    Interesting comparison.

    Pupils get something like 16 to 25 hours contact time a week, with class sizes limited to 30 I think.

    Schools manage this for about £5,000 a year for a pupil.

    The salary of an experienced teacher is about the same as that of a lecturer with a PhD.

    But of course schools don't need to pay for journal subscriptions...
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    It is commonly accepted that art degrees help subsidise degrees with more contact hours like sciences. Most of what you are paying for is just the opportunity to use all of the facilities of that university whilst you study there.

    I am happy with what I pay for: 24 hour library stocked with the latest journals and access to any papers I need for my degree for free. Free gym and swimming pool. Affordable accommodation for first year. A thriving student union. Also the ability to go and talk to my tutors and professors one on one if I ever get stuck with anything. Tutors are generally very respected academics and their time is worth a lot of money.

    There is no way I would have time for a part-time job and the university strongly advises against having one during term-time. I think if some people are only doing a few hours a week total studying then they are probably going to fail.

    It's not as if you have to pay fees upfront. It's mean to be an investment, and you pay it back after reaping the rewards of your degree.
    If you think the degree your doing won't allow you to pay back your loan in the future then you should have picked a better one.
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    (Original post by llys)
    Interesting comparison.

    Pupils get something like 16 to 25 hours contact time a week, with class sizes limited to 30 I think.

    Schools manage this for about £5,000 a year for a pupil.

    The salary of an experienced teacher is about the same as that of a lecturer with a PhD.

    But of course schools don't need to pay for journal subscriptions...
    Class sizes are more like 40 in most schools.

    I think most lecturers get paid a lot more than teachers. I don't really know how the academic system works properly but I think the majority are professors rather than just PhD graduates. Also I guess we are funding the some of the research that they do when they're not lecturing.
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    (Original post by therisenmitten)
    Class sizes are more like 40 in most schools.

    I think most lecturers get paid a lot more than teachers. I don't really know how the academic system works properly but I think the majority are professors rather than just PhD graduates. Also I guess we are funding the some of the research that they do when they're not lecturing.
    Most lecturers earn less than their equivalents in experience in the teaching profession.

    I would be very surprised if, except in some booming inner city areas, class sizes regularly exceed 30.

    You are funding their research to some extent and that is probably acceptable since it is that knowledge which you are paying for.

    What becomes a lot more questionable is when one group of students studying a cheap course are subsidising another group of students studying an expensive course, particularly when the expensive course has better employment prospects.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Most lecturers earn less than their equivalents in experience in the teaching profession.

    I would be very surprised if, except in some booming inner city areas, class sizes regularly exceed 30.

    You are funding their research to some extent and that is probably acceptable since it is that knowledge which you are paying for.

    What becomes a lot more questionable is when one group of students studying a cheap course are subsidising another group of students studying an expensive course, particularly when the expensive course has better employment prospects.
    I had 35-38 in most my classes in high school, but I guess it's probably not common.

    Yeah, there is a good debate about whether some courses should subsidise others. Personally I think it's a good thing because you end up with a range of graduates from different areas. If arts courses were cheaper then there might not be enough science/engineering graduates to fill jobs.
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    Study Helper
    My course had 24 hours contact a week last term. Add to that assignments and laboratory preparation (not to mention writing up notes) and you easily have a 35 hour work week.
 
 
 
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