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National Service Bill (conscription) 2013-14 Second Reading Watch

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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    Is that a yep a private members bill or yep it will never be passed?
    Both
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    For anyone who's not bothered to read it, it isn't just national service for the forces, rather:

    Regulations shall also provide that the scheme shall include—
    (a) a residential element, requiring that participants live away from home;
    and
    (b) an element of public service, comprising one or more of the following
    to be chosen by the individual—
    (i) charitable work,
    (ii) social action,
    (iii) care for the elderly or disabled,
    (iv) overseas development activity, or
    (v) work connected with the National Health Service, the
    emergency services or the Armed Forces.

    Which, on the face of it, seems like rather a good idea. My objections would be:

    Firstly, it'd take young people who have already developed the aforementioned skills out of the job market, arguably adding to the pressures facing young people trying to get a foot on the housing ladder, among other financial strains.

    Secondly, a year could disrupt continuity of education. While that year could be taken pre or post further education, a year out of learning may not benefit some people's retention of knowledge.
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    For anyone who's not bothered to read it, it isn't just national service for the forces, rather:

    Regulations shall also provide that the scheme shall include—
    (a) a residential element, requiring that participants live away from home;
    and
    (b) an element of public service, comprising one or more of the following
    to be chosen by the individual—
    (i) charitable work,
    (ii) social action,
    (iii) care for the elderly or disabled,
    (iv) overseas development activity, or
    (v) work connected with the National Health Service, the
    emergency services or the Armed Forces.

    Which, on the face of it, seems like rather a good idea. My objections would be:

    Firstly, it'd take young people who have already developed the aforementioned skills out of the job market, arguably adding to the pressures facing young people trying to get a foot on the housing ladder, among other financial strains.

    Secondly, a year could disrupt continuity of education. While that year could be taken pre or post further education, a year out of learning may not benefit some people's retention of knowledge.
    Seems like a good equalizer in theory, give kids of all backgrounds an opportunity to get out there and do something productive and useful in the long-term. The overseas development activity is particularly appealing, give working-class kids a chance to do what posh kids are all doing nowadays.

    But it's not gonna go through anyway.
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    National services sounds like a bit of fun, off on holiday for a year with your mates playing around with guns!
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    For anyone who's not bothered to read it, it isn't just national service for the forces, rather:

    Regulations shall also provide that the scheme shall include—
    (a) a residential element, requiring that participants live away from home;
    and
    (b) an element of public service, comprising one or more of the following
    to be chosen by the individual—
    (i) charitable work,
    (ii) social action,
    (iii) care for the elderly or disabled,
    (iv) overseas development activity, or
    (v) work connected with the National Health Service, the
    emergency services or the Armed Forces.

    Which, on the face of it, seems like rather a good idea. My objections would be:

    Firstly, it'd take young people who have already developed the aforementioned skills out of the job market, arguably adding to the pressures facing young people trying to get a foot on the housing ladder, among other financial strains.

    Secondly, a year could disrupt continuity of education. While that year could be taken pre or post further education, a year out of learning may not benefit some people's retention of knowledge.
    I bet you think that you have those skills now don't you?

    I thought I had those skills when I left full time education. It took several years for me to realise that I didn't. It took a monumental situation for me to develop them. (Part V)

    Anything that gives younger generations the benefit of experience to enable them to realise their full potential and get well paid jobs is a win win situation.


    One of the main reason we have high youth unemployment is people with no life experience are going for jobs. And I hate to burst your bubble, but going off to University to study, although beneficial is so common now that you need something else to differentiate you.

    One of the biggest criticisms of the UK is it's individualistic nature. Gert Hofsted has written much on this.

    http://geert-hofstede.com/united-kingdom.html

    Maybe, just maybe something like this would actually teach us to be better members of the community and try and look after each other a little bit better.


    A year out may disrupt education. But I've always found that the slightly older kids who go onto University always seem to work that little bit better. They're there because they want to be there and understand the importance of hard work and education. Not because Mummy and Daddy expect them to be there.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I bet you think that you have those skills now don't you?

    I thought I had those skills when I left full time education. It took several years for me to realise that I didn't. It took a monumental situation for me to develop them. (Part V)

    Anything that gives younger generations the benefit of experience to enable them to realise their full potential and get well paid jobs is a win win situation.


    One of the main reason we have high youth unemployment is people with no life experience are going for jobs. And I hate to burst your bubble, but going off to University to study, although beneficial is so common now that you need something else to differentiate you.

    One of the biggest criticisms of the UK is it's individualistic nature. Gert Hofsted has written much on this.

    http://geert-hofstede.com/united-kingdom.html

    Maybe, just maybe something like this would actually teach us to be better members of the community and try and look after each other a little bit better.


    A year out may disrupt education. But I've always found that the slightly older kids who go onto University always seem to work that little bit better. They're there because they want to be there and understand the importance of hard work and education. Not because Mummy and Daddy expect them to be there.
    Since you asked, no. Don't get me wrong, I'd say I've gathered a fair amount of life experience from various experiences, but I reckon I'd benefit from a year's work in any occupation. I think that, for some people, a year spent working, when they're already working in some fashion, would not be particularly advantageous.

    Bit of an anecdote, I don't agree, I've heard that it's harder to get back into learning when you've had a break from it. "Mummy and Daddy expect them to be there" comes across a bit condescending, surely you're not saying that everyone who goes from school to uni is there because of their parents' will?

    I think it would work best if it were mandatory for anyone 18-26 in long term unemployment, and perhaps optional for those in employment or full time education.
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    Since you asked, no. Don't get me wrong, I'd say I've gathered a fair amount of life experience from various experiences, but I reckon I'd benefit from a year's work in any occupation. I think that, for some people, a year spent working, when they're already working in some fashion, would not be particularly advantageous.

    Bit of an anecdote, I don't agree, I've heard that it's harder to get back into learning when you've had a break from it. "Mummy and Daddy expect them to be there" comes across a bit condescending, surely you're not saying that everyone who goes from school to uni is there because of their parents' will?

    I think it would work best if it were mandatory for anyone 18-26 in long term unemployment, and perhaps optional for those in employment or full time education.
    I

    It's not meant to come across as condescending. It's just that I've been through the system and so have all of my friends so I can look back on things. Yes, you're parents do put you under a certain degree of pressure to go off to University and to do course X instead of course Y because that makes them feel good about themselves when talking to the Joneses.

    You're idea of it being useful to teh long term unemployed does have merit, but here's some potential problems with it.

    1) You automatically start treating people differently. That will lead to claims of :
    • Persecution against the poorer members of society.
    • Middle classes feeling resentment to having to pay for it.
    • A degree of stigma associated to it. (little Johnny got a job, so why didn't Billy)


    As I've said before on this thread, I know many different Europeans who have had o do National Service. They all seemed a little more mature and better able to cope with the real world when starting out. It's little things like throwing somebody into a room full of strangers. A useful skill to deal with in the business world as it shows confidence, one though that you may never have to deal with for some time after graduating if at all.


    Even the ones who didn't want to do National Service still look back with a fondness. It cultivates teamwork and selfless behavior as you're dependent on each other. That's why I think it's a good idea.

    It's also a great leveller. Doesn't matter what school, University, area or grades you got. It lets talent shine through, and talent doesn't just involved getting A*s.


    EDIT. You have mentioned a gap in education can cause problems. I know it did for me, but we'd e looking at 12 to 24 months. Not 15 years.
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    Secondly, a year could disrupt continuity of education. While that year could be taken pre or post further education, a year out of learning may not benefit some people's retention of knowledge.
    Yet gap years (pre and post uni) are very common as are sandwich years during degrees.
    While there could be a proportion of people for whom an interruption like this would be a negative, they would be the exception to the rule.

    Almost every system of national service/youth engagement has had the facility to defer entry until after study if necessary (say in the medical fields, for example), or provide a placement that is more relevant to your intended area of work. This would especially be the case here where there is a broad array of options being proposed for involvement.

    It might disrupt the throughput of people into the job's market, but that's already happening. People aren't allowed to leave school until later now, people are studying at university longer and longer. Once the system runs for a few years the throughput will be normal once again.


    JFK once said "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". To me, 99% of the objections to this proposal are based, whether overtly or not, about the selfish principle. That people only want to look out for themselves and if they don't like it, it's not worth doing. To me, that's a pathetic argument that holds no water whatsoever.
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    While I'm all for policies that will reduce the individualistic nature in this country, but I can't see how this would achieve that aim.

    Surely human wellbeing is what we all want for each other? Are you aware of the philosopher Amartya Sen? I wonder if Philip Hollobone in particular would would benefit from reading his work. He posits that wellbeing is not reached based on what people are able to do - if so, I’m sure the bill would have some positive outcomes. Wellbeing is found when people have the freedom to choose what they do, and when they lead the kinds of lives they value. I suggest this bill removes this fundamental right to human wellbeing, and in doing so benefits neither the young people concerned of society as a whole.

    Also - what about young people already renting a property, or paying a mortgage - what are they expected to do to not be negatively financially effected while on the 'residential element' of this service? Similarly, what about young people who are parents themselves or carers for other family members? Will employers be obligated to keep jobs open while young people partake in this service?
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    (Original post by missyoung84)
    Also - what about young people already renting a property, or paying a mortgage - what are they expected to do to not be negatively financially effected while on the 'residential element' of this service? Similarly, what about young people who are parents themselves or carers for other family members? Will employers be obligated to keep jobs open while young people partake in this service?
    I've heard from people from other countries which have national service, or have had it until recently, that it's pretty easy to get out of. If you're caring for a family member that would almost certainly excuse you from it.

    Not sure about your other points though.
 
 
 
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