Turn on thread page Beta
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    oh ok.. so from reading the comments, I think I see how it works now..

    you have your elected representatives, or the exec, as you call them..

    And then they put forward a motion, and its voted on by a panal of randomly selected students..

    Hmm, so in that case, there would be a few things to consider:

    1 - this system of deciding things, was voted on by the mass student body, and a majority decided it was how they wanted it.. you cant then ***** about the ramifications of a wierd decision making system, if its what you wanted..

    2 - anyone could have gone to the meeting, and spoken/joined the debate.. one of the comentors mentions that most of the best/pursuasive arguements were given by the exec, in favour of the ban.. and very few people spoke against it.. - so maybe if students cared that much, they should have shown up and spoke out at the meeting?

    3 - you do have elected memembers, who are the ones to talk to about this.. but it seems that they are in favour (as a group) of this, and were key in pushing it through, and pursuading the randomly selected panal..
    1 - It is not what we wanted, there has not been a vote since the start of the academic term.

    2 - It was not advertised widely, I certainly didn't hear about it, and I am always around the union. (My lectures take place next door in fact) If I had the chance to debate, I certainly would off. But no, they kept it quite.

    3 - read post 1. And as you say, they are in favour, and as the survey points out, they are not representative of the student population. The union is a joke.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tufto)
    While I agree with you about the Sun, your comments about feminism are grossly out of proportion and incorrect. Laws about the number of women on executive boards and so forth are needed because sexism against women is not gone from this country, and power is still overwhelmingly in the hands of men. Not all feminists are as you describe them- in fact, only a very small and vocal minority are (which is the case in a lot of things, from religion to socialism).
    Would rep you if I could. It grows very tiresome to hear how many people belittle people for being 'feminists' when they are simply fighting against sexism. It would be like people ridiculing Martin Luther King for standing up against racism. There's enough sexism already without belittling those fighting against it too.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the mezzil)
    59 % of students are against the ban, something like 80 % were against the union even discussing the matter. You still want to bring democracy into the debate?
    Sure, happy to.

    The Students Union is required to consider motions proposed by a member of the student body. It has a well-established procedure for considering such motions, which was agreed several years ago in a referendum in which 2,000 students took part. The motion is first put to a student assembly, a randomly selected panel of 20 students. If an assembly reaches a 75% majority on a matter, it's settled, otherwise it's put to an online referendum in which every student can vote. The system has worked well for several years and has a clear democratic foundation. In this case the motion was passed by 18:2 by the assembly.

    We now have three results which illustrate the attitude of the student population towards The Sun:
    1. a process (democratically agreed) whereby an assembly of 20 students voted 18:2 to stop selling it (90%)
    2. a process (not democratically agreed) whereby a minority of the Mancunion's 155 strong sample agreed with the assembly (41%)
    3. a process (individual choice) whereby a daily average of 39,163 (out of 39,165) shun the Sun (99.995%)
    Obviously, there's an interesting issue of why (1) and (2) came up with different answers (most probably they were asked different questions). No doubt, the debate will continue. However, when the talking is over, I suspect that the 99.995% will win the argument.

    Incidentally, many newsagents in Liverpool still refuse to stock The Sun after many years. I assume that the right of any outlet to decide what it does/doesn't stock is not disputed?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the mezzil)
    1 - It is not what we wanted, there has not been a vote since the start of the academic term.

    2 - It was not advertised widely, I certainly didn't hear about it, and I am always around the union. (My lectures take place next door in fact) If I had the chance to debate, I certainly would off. But no, they kept it quite.

    3 - read post 1. And as you say, they are in favour, and as the survey points out, they are not representative of the student population. The union is a joke.
    - there isnt a referendum on how voting works every year...

    The students in charge now, were the ones voted in, last year, by the last years students..

    This year, you will get to vote and decide who you want to represent you for the next year.. Maybe, you could even run for a position yourself, if you feel strongly enough.

    My point is though, its a representative democracy.. you vote people in, and then they take action, but they are still voted into power by the student population, or how ever many can be bothered to vote..

    So the whole thing is not quite as un-democratic as you first made out..
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the mezzil)
    The people who made the decision were not elected.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Okay, they were a jury of 20 students appointed by the elected officials of the student union by process of random selection. Of course the union exec have a clear right of pre-veto as they can block anything from getting to that stage, so clearly your elected representatives supported the idea.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by the mezzil)
    Banning is not okay, that is called censorship and is not welcome in Britain, and certainly not in SU's. However, if they stopped selling them because it wasnt making a profit etc thats an entirely different reason. As i said nobodys forcing them, the union however has made the first authoritarisn move, nobody else. They are in the wrong.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    It's their shop and they can decide not to sell something for whatever reason they damn well please. Stop being such a drama queen.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    It's their shop and they can decide not to sell something for whatever reason they damn well please. Stop being such a drama queen.
    Yes. The Student Union shops are a business. They are there to make money. They compete with shops outside of campus as well let's not forget.

    Another argument is that The Sun newspaper probably isn't a good seller on University Campuses anyway. Local newspapers sell more than the Sun on our campus. A good decision is to remove the Sun and instead have something that sells in it's place. Student Unions stock things that students buy am I correct? The only people I see reading The Sun these days are commuting factory workers and white van men.

    This forum is full of drama queens. The people crying 'bloody feminists' need to shut up for once.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    banning "news" papers that have page 3 on campuses is NOT censorship, it's simply making a statement that it is not okay for a "news" paper to have that in it and call itself news and sell itself as one on a University campus or in a place that respects women.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    It's their shop and they can decide not to sell something for whatever reason they damn well please. Stop being such a drama queen.
    Sexism and Homophobia is a double words score. Well done! And if a right wing group in a student union (as if!) were to ban the Guardian you would have the same attitude, right? I had an argument with an old uncle of mine years ago when he said whenever people on the left get power they always abuse it and become authoritarian. The draconian laws that two terms of New Labour brought in showed that, where my uncle still here, I would be buying him a pint and apologising to him. This is just another example of what he said. Just another example of left wing authoritarianism. When hunting monsters, take care not to turn into what you hunt.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    It's their shop and they can decide not to sell something for whatever reason they damn well please. Stop being such a drama queen.
    Indeed. If you went into a university bookshop, you'd expect it to be filled primarily with academic books, because those are the kind of books a university wants to encourage its students to read. No-one considers this to be 'censorship' of other books, they consider it to be a perfectly reasonable policy for a university to have.

    However, the idea that a university would rather its students read the 'quality press' rather than tabloids, and might attempt to introduce policies to encourage this, is instantly met with cries of 'censorship!'.

    Though I am a bit mystified by the odd sense of priorities some unions seem to have, where they say the Sun should not be sold because of Page 3, but it's OK for union shops to stock lads' mags?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Though I am a bit mystified by the odd sense of priorities some unions seem to have, where they say the Sun should not be sold because of Page 3, but it's OK for union shops to stock lads' mags?
    I suspect that the motion to get rid of lad's mags hasn't been put forward to a student jury yet, that's all.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    I suspect that the motion to get rid of lad's mags hasn't been put forward to a student jury yet, that's all.
    I can't speak for everywhere, but in my uni the lads mags shelf in the uni shop already has one of those shelf covers, so would seem odd to get rid of them now.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anarchism101)
    I can't speak for everywhere, but in my uni the lads mags shelf in the uni shop already has one of those shelf covers, so would seem odd to get rid of them now.

    Not really, it's just a different moral question. Even if you cover up the magazines you are still making a profit from, and helping to support and industry that arguably objectifies and takes advantage of women.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    Not really, it's just a different moral question. Even if you cover up the magazines you are still making a profit from, and helping to support and industry that arguably objectifies and takes advantage of women.
    Sorry, I think you misunderstood my point. The policy of covering is itself fairly new is the point I was making.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I love it how they are still selling the sun at the SU shop even tough they gave "banned" the sale of it.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
Poll
Black Friday: Yay or Nay?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.