Undercover soldiers 'killed unarmed civilians in Belfast' Watch

Unruly Marmite
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#41
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#41
Can't we just agree that both sides did bad things, and it's time to forgive each other and move on? It isn't fair to say that almost everything was the fault of the Irish, but neither is it true to blame everything on the British. Both nations have been savage to each other throughout history- maybe it's time to put all that behind us, instead of it being repeatedly brought up?
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GR3YFOXXX
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#42
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(Original post by Clip)
Disgusting to you, maybe. I thinks it's ok. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, and all that.
You think pressuring people, against their own free will, to wear the Poppy is ok? What has that got to do with dying for your country?
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Clip
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#43
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
You think pressuring people, against their own free will, to wear the Poppy is ok? What has that got to do with dying for your country?
No one is pressured into doing anything. You started the whole fascism bit, which was pretty much an irrelevance.

Who cares, anyway? Ulster is over for the Army. A fair few people on both sides got killed who shouldn't have - but it's finished with. Got a problem with governance now, Sinn Fein-IRA can go and start blowing stuff up in Brussels - I won't care.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#44
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(Original post by Clip)
No one is pressured into doing anything. You started the whole fascism bit, which was pretty much an irrelevance.

Who cares, anyway? Ulster is over for the Army. A fair few people on both sides got killed who shouldn't have - but it's finished with. Got a problem with governance now, Sinn Fein-IRA can go and start blowing stuff up in Brussels - I won't care.
Read the thread...
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PopaPork
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#45
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I have read the thread.

It's time to move on. Unless all parties are going to be honest and admit what they did and who they killed then what's the point of finger pointing.

there is nothing to benefit from harping on about the past

both side did horrible things but it's over now move on.
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Clip
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#46
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
Read the thread...
So that I can suffer a few pages of your Sixth-form debating club, Republican flag waving? No thanks.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#47
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(Original post by Clip)
So that I can suffer a few pages of your Sixth-form debating club, Republican flag waving? No thanks.
No, so you can make a coherent, on topic, point.
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pol pot noodles
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#48
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#48
(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
We (James and I) consider ourselves Irish, why should we be guilted/pressured into supporting the veterans of Britain's (neo)colonial wars, especially when on our community has an array of personal experiences of grievances with the army? How nonsensical!
Except that's not what I'm saying you should do at all. I said McClean could have chosen to honour Irish World War veterans. Remebrance Day is not mutually a British thing, and the numerous other Irish players and people from other countries with legitimate greivances against the UK playing in England didn't have a problem with at least showing some respect, rather than snubbing it and then getting into flame wars on Twitter. Continuing to hold petty grudges is never going to solve Northern Ireland's future or mend British-Irish relations, that goes for both nationalists and loyalists.
Also, do you even know what neo-colonialism means? It's the practice of gaining influence in a country by means other than militarily, so by definition there are no veterans of these 'conflicts'. Throwing in a load of buzzwords for the sake of it won't add weight to your position.

(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
And on Iraq, the invasion itself was entirely unjustifiable.
Of course it can be justified. There's a moral argument, perhaps best advocated by Christopher Hitchens, as well as a tenuous legal argument.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#49
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Except that's not what I'm saying you should do at all. I said McClean could have chosen to honour Irish World War veterans. Remebrance Day is not mutually a British thing, and the numerous other Irish players and people from other countries with legitimate greivances against the UK playing in England didn't have a problem with at least showing some respect, rather than snubbing it and then getting into flame wars on Twitter. Continuing to hold petty grudges is never going to solve Northern Ireland's future or mend British-Irish relations, that goes for both nationalists and loyalists.
Also, do you even know what neo-colonialism means? It's the practice of gaining influence in a country by means other than militarily, so by definition there are no veterans of these 'conflicts'. Throwing in a load of buzzwords for the sake of it won't add weight to your position.



Of course it can be justified. There's a moral argument, perhaps best advocated by Christopher Hitchens, as well as a tenuous legal argument.
What utter nonsense. I'll deal with each ridiculous point in turn.

James McClean should not have been pressured to wear a poppy given the obvious sensitivity of the issue for a nationalist from Derry. End of. The fact that you are trying to blame him for the "flame wars" that ensued on twitter highlights your bias. Because he chose not to wear one, he was snubbing it? Every year Irish (and indeed English/Scottish/Welsh) people are pressured in to wearing a poppy by the British press. In the absence of Poppy Fascism it would not have been noticed. Its hardly a choice if you are verbally attacked for making the wrong choice, is it? He was targeted because of his opinion. Such Poppy fascism is unjustifiable.

As for the term "Poppy Fascism" it has been in circulation for a long time.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ne...179084711.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...surrender.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...lebrities.html

For the record, the poppy appeal is a British thing. The French and Americans have their own thing. It is not a part of any official Irish remembrance program largely due to the role of the British Army in the Irish War of independence, the civil war and the troubles.

Secondly, your point on Neocolonialism is nonsense. The invasion of Iraq was a premise to export and a mechanism used to instill a neocolonialist program in the region, hence my use of brackets to differentiate from traditional colonialism within such a military context.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#50
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#50
(Original post by arson_fire)
More ammunition for the paranoid IRA sympathisers to use to show how the catholic community were the oppressed victims of the big bad British state.

Stop dragging up the past and get on with your lives. Nobody cares about 10 terrorists being killed 40 years ago.
They were civilians... you're disgusting. As for the nobody caring bit, it was a headline on every news website yesterday, as well as being on prime time TV and the national and regional news broadcasts. Talk more crap please.
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felamaslen
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#51
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#51
(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
What an absolutely ridiculous post. I could not have expressed your total lack of knowledge better myself. Last nights documentary addressed issues from 1972. Here is a very basic list of grievances:

In that year alone 14 civilians were murdered in Derry by the British Army. A whitewash of an inquiry chaired by Widgery initially exonerated the army and blamed the innocent victims. It took a 14 year, 200 million pound, inquiry and over 40 years of campaigning to address this issue.

Gerrymandering of political boundaries took place insofar as that a nationalist city like Derry (c. 70% Catholic) had a unionist controlled council.

NICRA was brutally suppressed by a sectarian police force.

Internment was in effect. Diplock trials were common place.

Civilians were killed during operation motorman.

The UDA and the UVF operated with near impunity.

The UDR, basically a sectarian militia operated with impunity. Between 5 & 15% were estimated to be members of loyalist paramilitaries.

The MRF were killing innocent civilians.

In 1971 11 civilians were killed by the army in Belfast.

I could go on ad nauseum. This is merely off the top of my head.
I was more talking about ideologies and who we should be supporting. I'm not saying there weren't or aren't issues in NI, and won't argue with you there, what I'm saying is that doesn't mean the IRA's tactics were okay as a legitimate way of tackling these problems.

For example, if I thought the government or army had done some terrible things in London, I wouldn't use terrorism to try to get London to become a separate country from the UK.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#52
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#52
(Original post by felamaslen)
I was more talking about ideologies and who we should be supporting. I'm not saying there weren't or aren't issues in NI, and won't argue with you there, what I'm saying is that doesn't mean the IRA's tactics were okay as a legitimate way of tackling these problems.
I am a pacifist and am by no means justifying the IRAs campaign. But in the same breath I'll condemn any argument that tries to portray the British security forces as neutral arbitrators.

The British state has a long history of acts of illegal violence. The term terrorism is redundant as it is a politicised term with no neutral frame of reference.
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felamaslen
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#53
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
I am a pacifist and am by no means justifying the IRAs campaign. But in the same breath I'll condemn any argument that tries to portray the British security forces as neutral arbitrators.
Sorry if that was your interpretation of my post. What I meant was that the British security forces are at least defending a liberal democracy, even if they do wrong in that process. The IRA by contrast, would not create anything close to a democracy and would actually make the situation 10x worse. It kind of reminds me of Palestinian terrorists. I could sympathise for any Palestinian who wants to create a peaceful state alongside Israel because they would and do have legitimate grievances against some of the things Israel has done, but the moment they express support for, or engage in the kind of tactics that people like Arafat or Hamas have engaged in, they lose all credibility. Of course I'm not accusing you of engaging in or supporting terrorism, but my original statement on this thread was that I viewed the British security forces as the people who we should overall support in this conflict (as we should overall support Israel in that conflict), due to the lack of a credible alternative on the other side.
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Unruly Marmite
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#54
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#54
any argument that tries to portray the British security forces as neutral arbitrators.
Any argument for this in Northern Ireland seems odd to me, given that the Army is controlled by the Government and the Government clearly had an interest in Ireland. Though the Army was hardly the savage oppressors they sometimes get portrayed as.
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felamaslen
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Unruly Marmite)
Any argument for this in Northern Ireland seems odd to me, given that the Army is controlled by the Government and the Government clearly had an interest in Ireland. Though the Army was hardly the savage oppressors they sometimes get portrayed as.
Just to be clear, it is not the argument I originally, or ever, put forward.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#56
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#56
(Original post by felamaslen)
Sorry if that was your interpretation of my post. What I meant was that the British security forces are at least defending a liberal democracy, even if they do wrong in that process. The IRA by contrast, would not create anything close to a democracy and would actually make the situation 10x worse. It kind of reminds me of Palestinian terrorists. I could sympathise for any Palestinian who wants to create a peaceful state alongside Israel because they would and do have legitimate grievances against some of the things Israel has done, but the moment they express support for, or engage in the kind of tactics that people like Arafat or Hamas have engaged in, they lose all credibility. Of course I'm not accusing you of engaging in or supporting terrorism, but my original statement on this thread was that I viewed the British security forces as the people who we should overall support in this conflict (as we should overall support Israel in that conflict), due to the lack of a credible alternative on the other side.
I fundamentally disagree. The political wing of the IRA are in government. If you had a shred of evidence for the above I would be interested to discuss it.

The 'liberal democracy' of the UK committed atrocities on a wide scale and as such don't deserve such a degree of differentiation. You are trying to impose an objective moral framework where there is none.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#57
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#57
(Original post by arson_fire)
Yes, you are actually correct - a non-military person involved in terrorism is still technically a civilian.

Surprising that the day after it is suggested stopping prosecutions for things done before good Friday, these anonymous stories with no evidence and riddled with inconsistencies come to light.

Could this be an attempt to derail the end to the historical muck-racking that has proved a cash-cow for the republican community and the families of people who took up arms against their own country?
They were not involved with terrorism...please...god...read the article before letting the verbal diarrhea take hold!

As for John Larkin's proposed amnesty that is a completely unrelated topic. He made that announcement independently of government as attorney general. Do you think panorama independently made that show in the hour or so after he made his statement? Don't be such an idiot...

The basis of Panorama's investigation was by no means anonymous. The soldiers of the MRF appear on tape...?

Please try and make sense...
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Unruly Marmite
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#58
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#58
(Original post by felamaslen)
Just to be clear, it is not the argument I originally, or ever, put forward.
Fair enough. I see your original point- you're basically saying that, from a practical viewpoint, both sides did some bad things, but the British gave a real solution, whereas the IRA just gave rhetoric, for all that their cause was justifiable- right?
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felamaslen
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#59
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#59
(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
I fundamentally disagree. The political wing of the IRA are in government. If you had a shred of evidence for the above I would be interested to discuss it.

The 'liberal democracy' of the UK committed atrocities on a wide scale and as such don't deserve such a degree of differentiation. You are trying to impose an objective moral framework where there is none.
If there is no objective moral framework then surely everybody is right and everybody is wrong, and it doesn't really warrant talking about?

By the way, just because Sinn Fein are in government, does not mean they are respectable or democratic. Maybe they are; I haven't done much research on them to be honest.
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felamaslen
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#60
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#60
(Original post by Unruly Marmite)
Fair enough. I see your original point- you're basically saying that, from a practical viewpoint, both sides did some bad things, but the British gave a real solution, whereas the IRA just gave rhetoric, for all that their cause was justifiable- right?
Well I think the wider point is that Britain supports democracy, and the IRA don't, and that is why I don't support the IRA, and it is why I support the British in this conflict.
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