That's so gay - does anyone say it anymore? Watch

FelixTheKat
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#41
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#41
(Original post by ppppar)
People need to stop identifying as things, you're not black or white, gay or straight, male or female, conservative or progressive, english or italian, you are humans.
They're not mutually exclusive. I identify as a human, because I am. But if someone used the phrase "white British" as an insult, it would upset as I am white British and wouldn't want part of my identity to be an insult.

I identify as many things, from facts (male, white etc) to opinions (progressive etc), even to things I just like (interested in science etc). But whereas as the latter two are my choice, and so I wouldn't be too insulted if people used them as a prejorative term, the former aren't a choice and so if people used those as an insult, it wouldn't be fair.
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iuyscvbh
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#42
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As someone who actually is gay I thought I would wade into the debate. Personally I find all the reasons not to use it pretty unconvincing - particularly when it is so easy not to. I think it basically boils down to the fact that its not very nice (plus pretty primitive imo) to use a fact about someone which they can't change (in this case, sexuality) as an insult.

Also, the point about how its ok because some 'gay lobby' changed the word to that meaning so now we can't have our cake and eat it if the meanings changed, really doesn't make much sense. a) that doesn't make it ok, and b) why should what some people did before I was born have anything to do with me - not all gay people are the same!
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MostUncivilised
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#43
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#43
(Original post by stephanieuwa)
So you're calling me a guy? :K:

And an unsophisticated one at that?:unimpressed:

hmm. hmm. Yas. I am offended. I am very offended.
I think he's pointing out that it is a more masculine thing to do. You know how in certain circles, the women tend to be more aggressive and exhibit male traits? For example, if you go amongst chav women, they have quite masculine traits in terms of aggression, foul language, and the like.

I think that's what he was getting at
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stephanieuwa
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#44
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
I think he's pointing out that it is a more masculine thing to do. You know how in certain circles, the women tend to be more aggressive and exhibit male traits? For example, if you go amongst chav women, they have quite masculine traits in terms of aggression, foul language, and the like.

I think that's what he was getting at
lool, I understand what he meant. I was just simplifying where I was most offended. It's not the masculine traits I had an issue with, it was the unsophisticated nature of my masculine traits I had an issue with.
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ppppar
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#45
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#45
(Original post by FelixTheKat)
They're not mutually exclusive. I identify as a human, because I am. But if someone used the phrase "white British" as an insult, it would upset as I am white British and wouldn't want part of my identity to be an insult.

I identify as many things, from facts (male, white etc) to opinions (progressive etc), even to things I just like (interested in science etc). But whereas as the latter two are my choice, and so I wouldn't be too insulted if people used them as a prejorative term, the former aren't a choice and so if people used those as an insult, it wouldn't be fair.
by defining yourself you lose any sense of objectivity and invoke tribalism, my theory is better than yours, my party is better than yours, my beliefs are better than yours, my race is better than yours.
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MostUncivilised
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#46
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#46
(Original post by ppppar)
by defining yourself you lose any sense of objectivity and invoke tribalism, my theory is better than yours, my party is better than yours, my beliefs are better than yours, my race is better than yours.
I don't think that's entirely fair. When gay people were discriminated against and were the subject of violence and so on, there was a lot of strength and safety, and a feeling of belonging, that you could obtain by self-identifying in that way.

This is the same as how "black" is more than a skin colour, it is an identity from which many people of that race get a sense of belonging.

I think that as the discrimination against gay people recedes into the past, the necessity for such an identity will disappear, but I don't think we're quite there yet and it does behoove you to understand the reasons why homosexuals felt some attachment to a label
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ppppar
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#47
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
I don't think that's entirely fair. When gay people were discriminated against and were the subject of violence and so on, there was a lot of strength and safety, and a feeling of belonging, that you could obtain by self-identifying in that way.

This is the same as how "black" is more than a skin colour, it is an identity from which many people of that race get a sense of belonging.

I think that as the discrimination against gay people recedes into the past, the necessity for such an identity will disappear, but I don't think we're quite there yet and it does behoove you to understand the reasons why homosexuals felt some attachment to a label
That's a good point... still if it hadn't been for the act being viewed in such a negative light by people who identified as heterosexuals it wouldn't have been needed, of course people like to describe themselves in terms of groups but this does have the inevitable us vs them mentality attached to it.
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iuyscvbh
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#48
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#48
(Original post by ppppar)
by defining yourself you lose any sense of objectivity and invoke tribalism, my theory is better than yours, my party is better than yours, my beliefs are better than yours, my race is better than yours.
I think the point is that, yes, by giving yourself a clear identity you are drawing lines. However, this doesn't have to be negative: everyone has an identity - there is no reason we need to 'invoke tribalism' as we can have multiple identities and respect other people for theirs. I personally would identify, for example, as atheist but I find various aspects of Christian, Hindu and Muslim cultures beautiful and fascinating: why is there a need to erode these identities.

At the same point I agree that we are all ultimately human and we need to stop nitpicking on the differences and focus on the similarities, but there's no need to deny who you are at the same time.
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MostUncivilised
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#49
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#49
(Original post by stephanieuwa)
lool, I understand what he meant. I was just simplifying where I was most offended. It's not the masculine traits I had an issue with, it was the unsophisticated nature of my masculine traits I had an issue with.
To be fair, I think he's right. Using the word gay to mean rubbish is certainly unsophisticated, it would be sufficient to cause social death in some circles (and I'm not talking about gay circles). The use of the word is certainly pretty rare for people above the age of 21 (unless they are in the backwaters)

Additionally, use of the word gay to mean rubbish, given its unempathetic vibe, does seem less stereotypically female. So I can get on board with the "unsophisticated masculine" interpretation
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MostUncivilised
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#50
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#50
(Original post by FelixTheKat)
They're not mutually exclusive. I identify as a human, because I am. But if someone used the phrase "white British" as an insult, it would upset as I am white British and wouldn't want part of my identity to be an insult.

I identify as many things, from facts (male, white etc) to opinions (progressive etc), even to things I just like (interested in science etc). But whereas as the latter two are my choice, and so I wouldn't be too insulted if people used them as a prejorative term, the former aren't a choice and so if people used those as an insult, it wouldn't be fair.
Excellent post, I couldn't agree more.

It's because it goes to a fundamental aspect of your being that it can feel so hurtful and unfair. If someone hasn't been subject to that then I think it's hard to empathise with why something that superficially seems like no big deal can in reality feel like a real dig at who you are.
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JamesyC
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#51
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#51
I don't say it anymore because I'm not 14 years old. Before that it was game on.
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TurboCretin
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#52
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#52
(Original post by ppppar)
Never heard of this before :/
It's not a stereotype white people hold about themselves, but 'whiteness' denotes nerdiness among a lot of people. The song White & Nerdy by Weird Al Yankovich is testament to that.
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MostUncivilised
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#53
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#53
(Original post by TurboCretin)
You mean like the way people say "he's so white", to mean straight-laced and geeky?
Imagine you were a white Afrikaner at a predominantly black private school in South Africa and they used the word Boer to mean unintelligent, unsophisticated, bad generally.

Can you imagine how you would feel if the black kids constantly said "That's so Boer" about things they considered undesirable? Given you are already in the minority, given it's something that goes to the core of who you are and over which you have no control, it would feel unfair. And it would feel dishonest if these black kids then said, "Oh we don't mean you, we're not insulting you. Boer means bad/rubbish"
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stephanieuwa
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#54
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#54
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
To be fair, I think he's right. Using the word gay to mean rubbish is certainly unsophisticated, it would be sufficient to cause social death in some circles (and I'm not talking about gay circles). The use of the word is certainly pretty rare for people above the age of 21 (unless they are in the backwaters)

Additionally, use of the word gay to mean rubbish, given its unempathetic vibe, does seem less stereotypically female. So I can get on board with the "unsophisticated masculine" interpretation
As I said - twice now - I recognise that it's politically incorrect but when you're in an environment the language does tend to grow on you, regardless of whether you want it to. I said it was occasional. Moreover, from what I can grasp, you're saying it'll get less common with age, so that's hopeful.

Gay in my vocab doesn't mean 'rubbish.' It means romantic, lool I realise it doesn't make much sense to you. But in my 'social circle,' if someone says something emotional or sweet, the first response will be something like "aww that's so gay."

And, I guess I do talk to allot of guys and it's when I speak to them that I use the phrase (that's not to say my female friends do not use the phrase,) but I can understand how it could be deemed masculine. And I understand its unsophisticated nature, but overall as a person, I can bias-ly assure you that I am quite sophisticated.
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MostUncivilised
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#55
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#55
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
I never really thought about this before but you're right, the word changed meaning from "happy" to "homosexual" so really how can anyone complain if it changes meaning again?
He's not right, originally it wasn't gay people who called themselves gay, it was society generally that changed the meaning of the word. And the difference is that using gay to mean an identity is not a harmful and hurtful thing to say, saying it to mean bad/rubbish is hurtful.

(mostly because it is a very juvenile phrase to use)
We are certainly in agreement there
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iuyscvbh
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(Original post by stephanieuwa)
As I said - twice now - I recognise that it's politically incorrect but when you're in an environment the language does tend to grow on you, regardless of whether you want it to. I said it was occasional. Moreover, from what I can grasp, you're saying it'll get less common with age, so that's hopeful.

Gay in my vocab doesn't mean 'rubbish.' It means romantic, lool I realise it doesn't make much sense to you. But in my 'social circle,' if someone says something emotional or sweet, the first response will be something like "aww that's so gay."

And, I guess I do talk to allot of guys and it's when I speak to them that I use the phrase (that's not to say my female friends do not use the phrase,) but I can understand how it could be deemed masculine. And I understand its unsophisticated nature, but overall as a person, I can bias-ly assure you that I am quite sophisticated.
I do somewhat get your point - after all if the predominant meaning of 'gay' in some circles does mean bad (after 'homosexual', of course) then what are we supposed to do, ban its use? This sounds somewhat Newspeak-y to me...

Having said that, retraining yourself not to use it really isn't that hard: if you can learn 9 or so subjects for GCSE, you can stop using one word in speech.

(btw, I myself have actually used 'gay' myself to mean bad, which out of all people I know I should stop!)
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stephanieuwa
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#57
(Original post by iuyscvbh)
I do somewhat get your point - after all if the predominant meaning of 'gay' in some circles does mean bad (after 'homosexual', of course) then what are we supposed to do, ban its use? This sounds somewhat Newspeak-y to me...

Having said that, retraining yourself not to use it really isn't that hard: if you can learn 9 or so subjects for GCSE, you can stop using one word in speech.

(btw, I myself have actually used 'gay' myself to mean bad, which out of all people I know I should stop!)
Exactly.

I know I am. You know what I will. I just will. Mind over matter, right?
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TheGameOfScience
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NOO!! why would i say that, That's so gay...
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carlisomes
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#59
(Original post by MostUncivilised)
It seems pretty churlish to me, for someone to continue using it despite knowing that young gay people find it hurtful.

Sure, you might not want gay people dead per se, but at the same time you don't care if you say something that may contribute to them ending up dead.
huh? it's the same word, different meaning. doesn't mean homosexuality is bad or wrong.
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by MostUncivilised)
Imagine you were a white Afrikaner at a predominantly black private school in South Africa and they used the word Boer to mean unintelligent, unsophisticated, bad generally.

Can you imagine how you would feel if the black kids constantly said "That's so Boer" about things they considered undesirable? Given you are already in the minority, given it's something that goes to the core of who you are and over which you have no control, it would feel unfair. And it would feel dishonest if these black kids then said, "Oh we don't mean you, we're not insulting you. Boer means bad/rubbish"
I take your point, although 'boer' was originally just Afrikaans for 'farmer'. So farmers would probably have more legitimate cause for complaint than a white kid, unless of course the black kids really meant 'Boer' rather than 'boer', in which case that would be disingenuous of them, yes.

The history of the word 'boer' in Afrikaans seems roughly similar to what has happened to the word 'gay' in the English language. This is why I suggested that disparaging a pink shirt or flowery curtains as 'gay' is qualitatively different from calling a maths problem 'gay'. Maths problems do not seem to me to share characteristics with any gay stereotypes, so I don't see how calling a maths problem gay can logically be taken to be saying anything bad about gay people. Getting offended by that would be like black people getting offended by the phrases 'black market' or 'Black Monday', or any other phrase containing the word 'black' which carried negative connotations.

I should note at this point that I do share your intuition, but I'm just struggling to find reasoning which actually rationalises it.
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