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    The employment landscape has changed dramatically since the internet entered our lives.

    In my day you thought of a career you would like to do and the degree to take to achieve that goal.

    Now, if I had my time again knowing how the internet has affected the working demographic and how working for others limits your earning potential to the least they can get away with paying you to do a job, I would say you need to -

    think of a career you would like to do that will allow you to either become self-employed or that must be performed locally and the degree to take to achieve that goal.

    In other words protect yourself (and future family security, especially as you go into old age when re-employment is very difficult) from being undercut by others in different parts of the world who may not have the living expenses that the uk demands.

    In my experience, companies will ALWAYS go for quick profit (lower wages) over the quality of product produced or service provided or taking on the time and cost of training employees. This is driven from the top management in a company and can lead to nice bonuses for those who dont really need the cash and hardship for those working on the coal face whose wages are constantly being held down by this.

    The double whammy is IT wages in the uk are lower than they should be because of their international counterparts who can perform the same work for less over the internet in cheaper parts of the world to live. Not their fault they are just trying to better themselves but remember there are literally millions of developers in India and China happy to take what is to them a big pay rise and to us would be a big pay cut.

    Doctors, dentists, surveyors, politicians (yes they're ok Jack!) ... localised work where it would be extremely difficult or impossible to undertake this work remotely, give those careers the most thought. Make that part of your future career thinking would be my advice.. Good luck
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    Theres multiple factors:
    CS grads arn't exactly renouned for their social skills - limiting their employability if they can't get a grad job its unlikely a retailer will hire them.
    The industry doesnt actually want graduates they want experienced and productive people from day 1.
    On its own the degree doesn't come close to producing a productive developer out the box.
    Recruitment takes the form of "Buzzword bingo" if you don't have the right buzzwords on your CV with yrs of experience the clueless recruiters will filter you out. The buzzwords are often specific technologies your unlikely to of used at uni.
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    Blair's minister, Keith Vaz, who introduced Indian businessmen into the uk it sector to provide workers on Tier 2 visas is unsurprisingly speaking up again in their favour earlier in the year now that the cap on visas has been reached.
    Note how he states"It is totally unfair that only those with the highest salaries are granted visas once the cap is reached,” said committee chairman Keith Vaz."

    He is basically damning himself with his own words here giving away the primary reason for the visas..cheap wages/salaries for uk companies and big profits for his Indian business friends providing the labour.

    http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4...digital-skills

    Excerpt:

    But MPs on the Home Affairs Committee, prompted by the number of visa applications in June 2015, launched their own inquiry to examine the effect of the Tier 2 visa cap on employers with skills shortages.

    "Reaching the cap limit for the first time last month sparked concerns of skills shortages across the health and care sectors, and among business leaders. It is totally unfair that only those with the highest salaries are granted visas once the cap is reached,” said committee chairman Keith Vaz.“It is easy to see how this could impact on the services, sectors and small businesses that rely on skilled workers from abroad, and in the longer term impact on the economy. The committee hopes to gain an insight into whether the current system is the best way to achieve the twin aims of controlled immigration that can maintain the level of skilled workers essential to providing the services we all rely on and enjoy."

    Offshore IT companies – particularly those in India – often use part of the Tier 2 visa scheme, called intra-company transfers, to bring in staff from outside the EU to work on contracts in the UK. IT staff from India comprise a substantial proportion of such migrants. For example, Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) – the biggest Indian IT services firm – has over 10,000 UK-based staff, but only employs about 4,000 British staff.

    UK IT workers and campaigners claim this puts them at a disadvantage, because staff from India are paid less. The UK government sets a minimum pay threshold for migrants to try to ensure UK staff can compete on price, and has said it intends to fast-track measures to increase the minimum salary required.
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    Some interesting comments in the last day or so. From where I sit, I do not particularly fear off-shored software. It is indeed true that you can hire three or four developers abroad for the price of one locally, but the downsides are also huge. You lose control of your software. You lose internal knowledge about it and you create a management nightmare for those in the UK who have to deliver the product. It is also harder to keep on top of quality. Sure, there will always be companies out to make a quick profit, but similarly, customer's expectations of technology is rising and in a world of more competition, standing out from the crowd on price is not necessarily the way to win business. Customers are also looking for quality and excellence of service which by and large is difficult to deliver from afar.

    Graduates will no doubt talk of the difficulty of getting jobs after gradation. This isn't necessarily due to a lack of jobs, but from an employers point of view, there is a lack of good candidates. Simply having a degree doesn't really cut the mustard any more. We are looking for bright enthusiastic types that have more strings to their bow than simply having turned up to lectures.

    Similarly, the jobs market appears to be skewed towards the large corporates with their fancy assessment days and recruitment budgets. And yet, ironically, these are the companies most likely to recruit offshore. I know Lloyds for example have a massive offshore presence. Yet in the small and medium business world where distinction in the market is often made on quality, we really struggle to recruit at any level.

    Swings and roundabouts I know, but there isn't a government conspiracy. We are where we are. The future is bright for software. In Manchester where I live, I have seen a boom in jobs over the last 5 years with small startups popping up all over the place. But we are not looking for any old computer grad. We are pretty picky so if you want a job, you need to stand out from the crowd.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Graduates will no doubt talk of the difficulty of getting jobs after gradation. This isn't necessarily due to a lack of jobs, but from an employers point of view, there is a lack of good candidates. Simply having a degree doesn't really cut the mustard any more. We are looking for bright enthusiastic types that have more strings to their bow than simply having turned up to lectures.

    Swings and roundabouts I know, but there isn't a government conspiracy. We are where we are. The future is bright for software. In Manchester where I live, I have seen a boom in jobs over the last 5 years with small startups popping up all over the place. But we are not looking for any old computer grad. We are pretty picky so if you want a job, you need to stand out from the crowd.
    Couldn't agree more. At least from my perspective, I'm more than happy to hire someone who needs training, but that person absolutely needs to be able skill up fast and absorb what's going on around them. Ideally they can teach us something too. We need to able to see that you've got an insatiable thirst for knowledge and a desire to learn. What you're doing in your spare time, what little things you're tinkering with, what you've had exposure to through your own volition - these things tell a lot about a person.
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    Degree =/= job

    People who don't network in uni (or even before it) are idiots. Make connections - you will need them. Ideally, find a compsci/computing/IT course that lets you do a year in industry. You'll get experience and make your mark at a company.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Some interesting comments in the last day or so. From where I sit, I do not particularly fear off-shored software. It is indeed true that you can hire three or four developers abroad for the price of one locally, but the downsides are also huge. You lose control of your software. You lose internal knowledge about it and you create a management nightmare for those in the UK who have to deliver the product. It is also harder to keep on top of quality. Sure, there will always be companies out to make a quick profit, but similarly, customer's expectations of technology is rising and in a world of more competition, standing out from the crowd on price is not necessarily the way to win business. Customers are also looking for quality and excellence of service which by and large is difficult to deliver from afar.

    Graduates will no doubt talk of the difficulty of getting jobs after gradation. This isn't necessarily due to a lack of jobs, but from an employers point of view, there is a lack of good candidates. Simply having a degree doesn't really cut the mustard any more. We are looking for bright enthusiastic types that have more strings to their bow than simply having turned up to lectures.

    Similarly, the jobs market appears to be skewed towards the large corporates with their fancy assessment days and recruitment budgets. And yet, ironically, these are the companies most likely to recruit offshore. I know Lloyds for example have a massive offshore presence. Yet in the small and medium business world where distinction in the market is often made on quality, we really struggle to recruit at any level.

    Swings and roundabouts I know, but there isn't a government conspiracy. We are where we are. The future is bright for software. In Manchester where I live, I have seen a boom in jobs over the last 5 years with small startups popping up all over the place. But we are not looking for any old computer grad. We are pretty picky so if you want a job, you need to stand out from the crowd.
    Are you a startup founder? If yes, what do you look in an applicant?
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Are you a startup founder? If yes, what do you look in an applicant?
    No. Sadly not. But have worked for a startup. I have generally taken Joel Spolski's approach. Bright and gets things done is the watch word. So those bright, communicative, enthusiastic types are the folks that get me buzzing. If you struggle to articulate your ideas you are going to struggle.
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    I think engineering is an example where a very complex subject has seen a great drop in graduates taking those courses. Industry is now paying the price for the complacency of companies expecting a continual flow of talent without enough reward.

    I started as an engineer years ago but soon realised that as part of that role I also needed to write software and yet I was being paid less than those at the same company who ONLY wrote software.

    Word spreads, parents tell their children .. do not go there it is an underpaid discipline and very difficult work. Job satisfaction doesnt pay the bills or for holidays unfortunately.

    So i moved to software and have worked as a permie, contractor and for consultancies so have experience of the different viewpoints of each type of role. Software development and support is now in danger of losing its supply of uk talent, there is plenty of evidence why Computing Science grads have the highest unemployment rate and it isnt due to their lack of enthusiasm it is due to market conditions.
    Also it does not take too long to train a grad in a new tool if the company is willing to pay. UK IT graduates should not be expected to be at a high level of proficiency for an entry level role, training should be provided.
    In my opinion IT is going the way of engineering in the uk soon with respect to uk graduates unless companies start employing them soon instead of recruiting from offshore. Unlike engineering however the IT industry will suffer less due to their alternative supply of profitable labour.
    I have worked with an offshore developer in a small consultancy after his recruitment the directors tried to 'persuade' a uk developer with a family to feed to leave causing him to have a breakdown, needless to say I stook up for him absolutely deplorable behaviour. I have worked in a couple of medium size development houses as permie and contractor with a separate team of offshore developers working in a separate room. I have worked in a large company where the whole of our team of experienced developers were made redundant so the work could be moved to their offshore base.

    There is a lot to be said about the satisfaction you can get from designing and producing software compared to another pen pushing job, however when the pay falls short of such less complex jobs and management have profits through wages in mind now in the uk it industry you can easily see the number of uk IT graduates falling over time.
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    Some more marketconditions evidence, though its all over the internet with a simple search:

    http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4...y-13-in-a-year
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    This is an interesting read on trade deals in 2013 which reveal the governments manouvering to determine the makeup of labour markets in the uk in future. A conscious effort has been made by the Blair and Cameron governments to take measures to drive down wage levels in the uk.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...visit-to-india
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    (Original post by A Dev)
    This is an interesting read on trade deals in 2013 which reveal the governments manouvering to determine the makeup of labour markets in the uk in future. A conscious effort has been made by the Blair and Cameron governments to take measures to drive down wage levels in the uk.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...visit-to-india
    There is nothing like a nice unbiased article on a delicate subject. It is just as well that we are in the EU with all the EU based employment law to protect our workers. It would be awful to leave and see those rights watered down... wait a minute!
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    It has been going on since the Blair government. Deals made by politicians on behalf of the investment interests of their friends in the City with the IT sector bearing the brunt of the cheap labour supply in return for at least 15 years now. All governments Tory and Labour seem to have the same City loyalties.
    Believe me if this was reversed now companies would be clamouring for uk grads to train on very good wages instead of them having the highest unemployment rate of all grads and more experienced developers would be earning 50-80k instead of around half that outside of London and having to look over their shoulder all the time.
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    (Original post by serah.exe)
    This makes me sad. :emo:
    I am going to study 3 years BSc Computer Science and 1 year in Industry (or abroad), which might help...:confused:
    You'll be fine if you do a year in industry.
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    It is best to be aware of market conditions in your field. Making contact with a company as an apprentice before doing your degree is excellent though not easy to achieve. Some companies still offer these positions just not in the numbers as previous years.

    If you cant get one dont worry as you can, if having difficulty finding a position as a grad, move closer to the capital and take a position regardless of the pay just to get the experience and a foot in the door. Once you are in the early stages of your career you can carve out a niche position away from development, maybe as a business analyst (very difficult to offshore due to clear communication and locality required). There are always likely to be uk developers however there is also always likely to be pressure on wages in a downward direction due to global competition.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/f...ap?view=mobile

    Lo and behold the government have had a great idea which should recoup some of their loss in taxes and NI due to the displacement of uk it workers in the wheeling and dealing by introducing a levy charge on intra company transfers. A situation of their own making. The minimum wages for intra company transfer workers are unenforcable and just a pie in the sky number. They are paid offshore no track is kept of how much they are paid, the whole concept is hilarious as they will on the whole be paid much less than the quoted minimum wage required by the uk government.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ants-1000-levy

    A lot of developers move into project management again something home talent is in demand for with their communication skills on home soil and less prone to offshore competition.
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    Here is another way around the minimum wage limit..

    Yep, ICTs are uncapped, however hopefully by increasing the minimum salary to £41,500 they will make it less attractive. However, I know of ICT workers who are nominally paid £24k (the current limit), but are then charged at source (untaxed as salary sacrifice) for accommodation and travel such that their real salary is barely above minimum wage. Of course the employer (invariably a large Indian or American SI) doesn't have to justify this to either the Home Office or HMRC.
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    (Original post by MUN123)
    I find this strange how we hear that businesses complain of skills shortage in development and yet computer science graduates have the highest unemployment rate higher than graduates in arts subject? Am I missing something here?

    Here's a link
    http://www.software.ac.uk/blog/2013-...ter-scientists
    Having a computer science degree doesn't necessarily prove you are able to perform the tasks company have set for specific jobs, that is due to the amount of theory you get in class and less practical. Computer science jobs not necessarily rely on degrees and certificates. It's about experience and what you can do
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    Here are two looooooong lists of programming languages and databases that may be used practically in software development jobs.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ng_languages#A

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...gement_systems

    As is obvious it would take a university anything up to 100 years to teach all of these to a student on the off-chance that one of them will be the language and database that is used in the first job they are applying for after graduating.

    Yes, it is totally crazy to expect a university degree to prepare a graduate in a language and database for that first position in industry. How on earth can they give experience in the vast spread of languages and databases used (and versions, the bugbear of developers trying to stay up to date)? They cant, that's why your first company is meant to train a graduate in that companies tools of choice before gaining the benefits of that.

    A week course that may cost £1.5k then training on the job is all that is needed for a graduate with general principals and a comparable language/database learned at university to be able to adapt syntactically to a new language/database. It happened to me it isn't difficult for the company to convert the graduate into an invaluable resource for the uk it talent pool.

    Problem is it is cheaper to hire offshore developers or move work offshore without any responsibility for training. That is until they realise the offshore developer sometimes isn't all they claimed on their cv. I've experienced that a few times, it takes a week or two for it to become apparent they cant programme in the language and are trying to learn on the job. It doesn't stop companies doing it though, they are just sent back and replaced with another cheap resource under-cutting uk developer salaries and giving wage profits to the governments business buddies while the government also keep their friends in the City happy with investment deals into Asian markets courtesy of the Indian government in return.
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    (Original post by serah.exe)
    This makes me sad. :emo:
    I am going to study 3 years BSc Computer Science and 1 year in Industry (or abroad), which might help...:confused:
    The degree is just a piece of paper which gets you through the door for an interview. It's your personality, interests and ability which lands you the job. You'll only be employed if they think you can fit into the firm. Don't worry. A computer science degree is a good foundation for finding work.
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    (Original post by ahpadt)
    The degree is just a piece of paper which gets you through the door for an interview. It's your personality, interests and ability which lands you the job. You'll only be employed if they think you can fit into the firm. Don't worry. A computer science degree is a good foundation for finding work.
    This ^^^^^^^^
 
 
 
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