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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    There are no male and female professions. The notion that there are only exists because we keep propagating these artificial divisions through things like only putting science kits in the boys toys section (there should be no girls toys and boys toys, only toys). If we remove these artificial segregations, then in a few generations these stupid old fashioned ideas, that prevent people doing the careers they really want, will have disappeared, forever, and good riddance.
    Would you support females who meet all physical requirements serving on the front line not just in some role back at base but out on patrol walking through IED fields coming under fire?
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    (Original post by This Is Matt)
    Would you support females who meet all physical requirements serving on the front line not just in some role back at base but out on patrol walking through IED fields coming under fire?
    Of course, I'm a feminist.

    What a silly question.
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    (Original post by This Is Matt)
    One large toy shop chain did an experiment. I've a few months all science toys were boxed in gender neutral packaging (plain white with black writing identifying what they were). The toys were placed in a neutral part of the store and number bought by makes and females recorded. Guess what? More makes bought the toys.

    The experiment was altered to allow children on their own to pick out something they wanted from the store without parental/adult influence. Guess what? Again boys bought more science toys.

    The third experiment wrapped the toys in pink packaging with flowers, butterflies and pictures of females on the box. The toys were placed on the female section,. Guess what? Boys still bought more than females. In fact, females hardly bought more than they did in the control where all science toys were left how they usually are (in the boys section with blue packaging apparently).

    The big question is not about placing sconce sets in a different section but finding out why boys gravitate towards science?
    Interesting. Do you have a link to this study?


    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    No it doesn't. The entire point of feminism is to address gender inequality as a whole.

    They don't choose to study science because they are repeatedly told from the time they learn to talk that science is "a boy's subject" and for them to be interested in it would be weird and unfeminine.

    The exact same argument applies with male nurses. Society keeps repeating this mantra that nursing is a "feminine profession" and hence any man that goes into it must be somehow unmasculine. Just watch the film "meet the parents" for an example.


    There are no male and female professions. The notion that there are only exists because we keep propagating these artificial divisions through things like only putting science kits in the boys toys section (there should be no girls toys and boys toys, only toys). If we remove these artificial segregations, then in a few generations these stupid old fashioned ideas, that prevent people doing the careers they really want, will have disappeared, forever, and good riddance.
    Not true. Even countries which have taken great pains to mediate social differences such as the Scandinavian countries (Sweden, for example, bans any pre-school book which contains any hint of a gendered profession) have no better ratios than anywhere else for men in nursing and women in engineering. In fact, they are more extreme there than anywhere else in the world.

    Also, male-female brain differences are not really that 'slight'. A recent study showed the fundamental neural structure is very, very different; as are the composition of grey and white matter, etc. It's also scientifically proven that prenatal sex hormone exposure (such as foetal testosterone) has major impacts on development, empathy, and interests in 'systematising'. Do you think that males are 10x more likely to be on the autistic spectrum than females purely because of socialisation?

    Do social influences exist too? Sure. But perhaps not to the extent, or not with the debilitating effect, that you, and most feminists, typically believe.
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    (Original post by james22)
    Does this really ever happen? Due to equality laws the woman could sue ehre employer in this case.
    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/421746.article
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    So just to clarify what your problem with that picture is:

    Are you saying that science toys aren't kept in the boys section? I suggest you visit a toy store and re-educate yourself.

    Or are you saying that they should be in the boys section only because girls are too dumb to understand science?
    I couldnt help but physically laugh at the inferences you made from my statements. They are truly preposterous accusations of my thoughts and opinions and I'd like you to re-quote what it was I said, underling the words exactly to help explain how you came to such utterly silly conclusions about what I think about women.

    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    No it doesn't. The entire point of feminism is to address gender inequality as a whole.
    You should perhaps read a few more books on the subject you appear so passionately about, The entire point of feminism is the collective movement and combined ideologies geared and aimed towards the defending or establishing of womens rights, in things financial, political, economical and social.

    They don't choose to study science because they are repeatedly told from the time they learn to talk that science is "a boy's subject" and for them to be interested in it would be weird and unfeminine.
    If you have ever studied a science, you'll realise the Biology is absolutely teeming with women. Half of biology's PhD's are championed by women..

    The exact same argument applies with male nurses. Society keeps repeating this mantra that nursing is a "feminine profession" and hence any man that goes into it must be somehow unmasculine. Just watch the film "meet the parents" for an example.
    Wow, quoting and citing your evidence from a singular media source geared towards entertainment. This is well and truly the icing on the cake. My cousin is a nurse, a male one at that and works with just as many if not more male nurses at Nottingham's Queens Medical Center.

    I can only assume you've not actually lived in the real world, and lived in a small pod with a computer screen programmed with TSR on its homepage and a radio next to you, spouting the innane boring arguments and verbal sleight of hands that modern western feminsts use over and over and over again.
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    (Original post by This Is Matt)
    The whole thing about girls studying physics and maths is one tiny section. In fact, there are more female dominated subjects than there are make dominated ones. Some 23% of English places are taken by males. The rest are taken by females. 90% of performing arts are female, maths is taken by 40% of females, yet in psychology and RE only around 17% of males take the subject.

    Saying women are not encouraged to take science is missing the problem. The big question is: 'Why doe women gravitate towards the arts and makes gravitate towards the sciences?'

    One scientific reason could be the physical differences in matter making up he brain. Makes usually have a more analytical mind that likes to focus on one specific task and work through it logically, whereas females tend to have a more creative mind focused on examining all different sides to something (ideal for history, English and law).

    But of course, hard evidenced studies revealing the differences brain matter build up between male and female brains is all part of the plot against females.
    Something tells me you have never studied evolutionary biology.
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    Here is my question, why does it matter who is doing what job?

    If they are happy doing their job it shouldn't matter whether it be a male or female dominated position. If a man wants to do a female dominated role he can, and vice versa.

    I think we should be striving to get people to do jobs they enjoy rather than what is expected of them, all through my school education everyone was told to do what they were interested in. At no point did I ever hear that women can't do this or men can't do that. Not once. Even at University there is women doing engineering and nobody thinks of them any different to anyone else doing the same degree, it is just another person that is interested in engineering. There are men doing animal welfare and nobody looks down on them for doing it, because that is what they enjoy.

    Everyone is too hung up on what used to happen in education and can't seem to understand that things have changed for the better for both genders.
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    (Original post by physicsbook)
    Feminism on the large does focus on the points I made and I do not support the picture you linked me to as that person obviously is not educated on the subject.
    (Original post by physicsbook)
    I actually have more important things to do than educate people on oppression and rights so I apologies but appreciate your reply and willingness to talk about the subject.
    The assumption that anyone who has a differing opinion to yours is not educated is highly repulsive, contemptuous and narcissistic.

    I returned to education as a mature student last year and the educational institution saw fit to have two separate Feminist based organisations come into the class and give presentations to challenge male attitudes toward domestic violence. The morals being promoted by these lengthy presentations could be summed up in one sentence. 'Males should not perpetrate or condone domestic violence against women'.

    The course I was studying had it's roots firmly based in equality, which I firmly agree with (hence I took the course). I was therefore affronted that my educational institution would allow an organisation to give a presentation that blamed a gender for domestic violence and made the assumption that this gender had to be educated.

    I looked at countless studies on domestic violence after this and that statistical information across these studies showed that the number of males suffering domestic violence ranged between 20-50%. Quite clearly not a gender issue. When I brought up the subject on non gender catalysts that drastically contribute to the number of instances of domestic violence such as alcohol, my opinions were met with confusion and contempt. A large portion of domestic violence also affects children of both genders.

    I felt very offended by the attitude that 'males need to be educated to not hit women'. If a guy hits a women it is because he is an ******** and a poor excuse for a human being, it is not because he is a male. I know several females who perpetrate domestic violence and abuse the power dynamics of a relationship, this is not a gender exclusive domain.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aumw1CATQds

    The more I looked into it the more shocked I was at the double standards and sexist remarks emanating from 'credible Feminist sources'. Erin Pizzey who founded the first UK women's refuge made a series of videos which highlight some of the absurdity surrounding modern Feminism.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5AOj6EhRuY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN-TUkPRuY4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02BcLL1-6dk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1w1qjY1E0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFLB3fMPBeE

    My own conclusion is that in the western world much of modern day Feminism is condescending to women, sexist and dis-empowering. I believe generally in equality (although some differences between the sexes should be celebrated not ignored or treated like they do not exist). To me females should be able to choose without prejudice what they want, and what their path is in life. My partner decided she was happy to stay at home for a couple of years and spend more time with the children and was continually ridiculed for 'not doing something with her life'. She was happy to do this of her own volition and when the kids got a little older she had no trouble in successfully studying a Physics degree. The only discrimination she received was from Feminist attitudes telling her she was 'doing the wrong thing'. Where is the equality of choice in that?

    When I look at the developing world I am appalled at some of the treatment people suffer on the grounds of gender and there are many issues which I personally feel need to be tackled as a matter of absolute urgency. I do not feel Feminism offers a vehicle to tackle these issues though. Modern Feminism in my opinion is often misguided, orders it's priorities in a questionable manner, is primarily focussed on one genders issues and causes division.

    Looking at two sentences that sum it up for me....

    'End domestic violence against women!'
    'End domestic violence!'

    I prefer the second one, it sends a clearer message and is quicker to type.
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    (Original post by Michael!)
    They simply deemed it sexist that women weren't allowed to participate and branded it 'inherently sexist'. I'm not debating the fact that there are programmes that focus on men just as there are programmes out there that focus on women. My point is, men have never had an issue with it. But as soon as a programme crops up that is about men surviving on an island, a brigade of feminists start bleating on about how they 'can do whatever a man can do'.

    Where as in reality, feminism in western culture is becoming less relevant because equality has been achieved in many areas. In some cases, things have gone further than equality. The law student who 'cried rape' essentially ruining someone's life (as they'll always be tarred with that claim) only received 3 years in prison (will be out in 18 months) where as someone convicted of rape faces over 8 years in prison. Surely what she did is just as bad as rape? Why did she get let off so easily? Because in many scenarios women are still seen as frail and innocent so the law overcompensates for that by handing them reduced and arguably, unfair sentences. 'Murdered by my Boyfriend' portrayed women as the victims of domestic abuse where almost all of domestic abuse that I've heard of or experienced, the men were the victims.

    Yes we do live in a relatively sexist society. But I think you'll find that men are victim to an equal measure.
    Why do you think women are seen as frail and innocent? It's not from feminism if that is what you are thinking. It's archaic stereotypes that even to this day cling to popular culture, popular culture like the kind you find in mainstream media. Also I just love how you're trying to convince me the false rape accusations are even on the same level as ACTUAL RAPE. The number of false rape accusations are insanely low compared to actual cases of reported sexual assault. And although men are more likely to be the victims of verbal abuse by women it still doesn't change the fact that men are still overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violent crime against women on statistical basis only. If you think feminism no longer has any bases in western society you've never looked at the numbers.
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    (Original post by Reece Sure)
    I couldnt help but physically laugh at the inferences you made from my statements. They are truly preposterous accusations of my thoughts and opinions and I'd like you to re-quote what it was I said, underling the words exactly to help explain how you came to such utterly silly conclusions about what I think about women.


    You should perhaps read a few more books on the subject you appear so passionately about, The entire point of feminism is the collective movement and combined ideologies geared and aimed towards the defending or establishing of womens rights, in things financial, political, economical and social.


    If you have ever studied a science, you'll realise the Biology is absolutely teeming with women. Half of biology's PhD's are championed by women..


    Wow, quoting and citing your evidence from a singular media source geared towards entertainment. This is well and truly the icing on the cake. My cousin is a nurse, a male one at that and works with just as many if not more male nurses at Nottingham's Queens Medical Center.

    I can only assume you've not actually lived in the real world, and lived in a small pod with a computer screen programmed with TSR on its homepage and a radio next to you, spouting the innane boring arguments and verbal sleight of hands that modern western feminsts use over and over and over again.
    The fedora is strong with this one.
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    (Original post by PZ36)
    Why do you think women are seen as frail and innocent? It's not from feminism if that is what you are thinking. It's archaic stereotypes that even to this day cling to popular culture, popular culture like the kind you find in mainstream media. Also I just love how you're trying to convince me the false rape accusations are even on the same level as ACTUAL RAPE. The number of false rape accusations are insanely low compared to actual cases of reported sexual assault. And although men are more likely to be the victims of verbal abuse by women it still doesn't change the fact that men are still overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violent crime against women on statistical basis only. If you think feminism no longer has any bases in western society you've never looked at the numbers.
    If feminism were to reform to be more inclusive of men's issues then most people wouldn't have an issue with it. However, feminism fights for equality by only dealing with one sides problems. In fact many of the issues that men face are almost completely ignored by feminism and when the MRAs step to try and deal with the issues that men face they called misogynistic.

    Before you try to say men don't have problems just have a quick read through this: (I don't like the Guardian, however this is a good article done by them).

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...ivide-feminism
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    If feminism were to reform to be more inclusive of men's issues then most people wouldn't have an issue with it. However, feminism fights for equality by only dealing with one sides problems. In fact many of the issues that men face are almost completely ignored by feminism and when the MRAs step to try and deal with the issues that men face they called misogynistic.

    Before you try to say men don't have problems just have a quick read through this: (I don't like the Guardian, however this is a good article done by them).

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...ivide-feminism
    Most of the gender-based issues that dog men are the result of sexism against women. Gender based discrimination is linked. Go ahead start naming some of the gender-based discrimination against men and I'll show you the misogynistic stem.
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    (Original post by PZ36)
    Why do you think women are seen as frail and innocent? It's not from feminism if that is what you are thinking. It's archaic stereotypes that even to this day cling to popular culture, popular culture like the kind you find in mainstream media. Also I just love how you're trying to convince me the false rape accusations are even on the same level as ACTUAL RAPE. The number of false rape accusations are insanely low compared to actual cases of reported sexual assault. And although men are more likely to be the victims of verbal abuse by women it still doesn't change the fact that men are still overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violent crime against women on statistical basis only. If you think feminism no longer has any bases in western society you've never looked at the numbers.
    http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/6478/1/Download.pdf

    A study by Rumney on this, if you look at the chart on Pages 10-11, studies have estimated the number of false rape claims to be from 1.5% to 90%.

    The major issue is the definition of rape, especially with regards to alcohol. If 2 drunk people have consensual sex, has rape occured?
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    (Original post by andrew2209)
    http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/6478/1/Download.pdf

    A study by Rumney on this, if you look at the chart on Pages 10-11, studies have estimated the number of false rape claims to be from 1.5% to 90%.

    The major issue is the definition of rape, especially with regards to alcohol. If 2 drunk people have consensual sex, has rape occured?
    That's a fair point. That does bring the issue of how rape is defined by the law and a more in-depth look into consent though I'm not sure how I feel about a study that estimates false rape claims at a rate of 1.5% to 90%. That is an incredibly large margin of error.
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    (Original post by PZ36)
    That's a fair point. That does bring the issue of how rape is defined by the law and a more in-depth look into consent though I'm not sure how I feel about a study that estimates false rape claims at a rate of 1.5% to 90%. That is an incredibly large margin of error.
    One previous study claimed the number was as low as 1.5%, another claimed it was as high as 90% (which I don't believe, as the next highest was only ~40%)
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    (Original post by PZ36)
    Most of the gender-based issues that dog men are the result of sexism against women. Gender based discrimination is linked. Go ahead start naming some of the gender-based discrimination against men and I'll show you the misogynistic stem.
    Employment Fatalities, men work more dangerous jobs but the feminist movement have not been seen to promote gender equality in these roles. I have never seen feminists try and get more women into agriculture which is the most dangerous profession in the UK and has a fatality every week.

    Suicide Rates. Much higher for men, why is this misogynistic.
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    (Original post by andrew2209)
    One previous study claimed the number was as low as 1.5%, another claimed it was as high as 90% (which I don't believe, as the next highest was only ~40%)
    There seems to be a lot conflicting information on the true numerical value of false rape accusation. Though I do feel regardless that a open conversation on the nature of consent should be a big part of health education.
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    (Original post by ROONEY-9-MUTD)
    I was strangely aroused by this video.

    (Original post by DiddyDec)

    Suicide Rates. Much higher for men, why is this misogynistic.
    I would just like to clear up on this statistic, that while the rates of completed suicide attempts are 2:1 male to female, the attempted rates are 1:3 male to female, mainly due to women generally choosing less violent means than men (hanging, GSW to the head, etc.)
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Employment Fatalities, men work more dangerous jobs but the feminist movement have not been seen to promote gender equality in these roles. I have never seen feminists try and get more women into agriculture which is the most dangerous profession in the UK and has a fatality every week.

    Suicide Rates. Much higher for men, why is this misogynistic.
    Dangerous work is social attributed as being men's work not because men should be placed in harms way, but because of the false idea that women would not be able to complete the harder physically stressful work associated with fields such as agriculture. Also why would feminist groups need to push for women to be in agriculture when the number of women in agriculture is already growing?
    http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/11/01/...ng-careers.htm

    In regrades to male suicide. The gender-based bias is not often studied to the extent it should be, it would be incredibly insensitive of me to write off the male suicide trend as being only influenced by gender inequality. There are a lot of factors at play in regrades this trend and I am no expert on the phenomenon.
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    (Original post by PZ36)

    ...The number of false rape accusations are insanely low compared to actual cases of reported sexual assault.
    False rape cases can range from very low to very high, depending on the source, definitions used, and whether confirmed cases of false allegations are being compared to confirmed cases of rape or merely the sum of rape allegations made (or even estimates of total rape). False rape statistics can range from as low as 1% of cases to 50% and above.

    (Original post by PZ36)
    And although men are more likely to be the victims of verbal abuse by women it still doesn't change the fact that men are still overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violent crime against women on statistical basis only. If you think feminism no longer has any bases in western society you've never looked at the numbers.
    In most cases, women are indeed the majority of sexual partner violence victims (although, the US CDC actually places men in the majority here). However, men are far more likely to be the victims of physical abuse or assault of any kind. Statistically, you are far safer being a woman than a man with regards to most violent crime.
 
 
 
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