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Is a world cup medal needed to be considered one of the best of all time ? Watch

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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Well I don't agree that pretty much every pundit who's watched the greats says its Messi. In fact Andres Iniesta who played with Messi says the greatest of all time is Michael Laudrup....

    But I do agree with your first line: you can't judge a player's ability over 7 games in a World Cup: you have to judge what they achieve over time. Which is why Messi has earned his place as one of the all time greats regardless. Maradona didn't get his GOAT rating from the 1986 World Cup alone but for achievements at club as well as international level, including being virtually a one-man domination in Serie A winning titles for Napoli.
    Arsene Wenger (Coach, Arsenal) - “Who is the Best Player in the World? Leo Messi. Who is the Best Player Ever? Leo Messi!”


    Diego Maradona (Ex Argentina) – “I have seen the player who will inherit my place in Argentine football and his name is Messi. Messi is a genius and he can become an even better player.”


    Ferrer (ex-Barcelona, Chelsea): “I played with Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Laudrup and Stoichkov but Messi is the best I’ve seen”

    Roy Keane (Ex ManUnited) – “I was a big fan of Maradona growing up and of the current crop Ronaldo is good but Messi is the best I’ve ever seen. I don’t dish out praise lightly but Messi deserves it. I look for weaknesses in his game and I can’t find them.”

    Fabio Capello (Ex Coach, Juventus) -“In my entire life I have never seen a player of such quality and personality at such a young age, particularly wearing the ‘heavy’ shirt of one of the world’s great clubs.”

    And that's just a few quotes people saying he can't be mentioned among the greats of the game now is laughable. When he's retired and the dust has settled he will probably go down as the greatest player of all time Whether he wins the World Cup or not
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    I think what has improved a lot is systems and tactical innovations.

    One point that has to be made in Messi's favour, is that despite his great individual talent he is basically a systems man. He plays a role that the team needs, rather than expecting a team to be built about him. I thought it was interesting to read Ibrahimovic's book where he was talking about his time at Barca and spoke negatively about Messi for being not an individual, like, how come a guy with all that talent just acts like a quiet schoolboy doing what he's told to....but surely that's what a manager dreams about?

    In the old days, there were always big difficulties in integrating a great individual talent in a system. Which is why as Italy coach, Arrigo Sacchi had a big fall out with Roberto Baggio: because Sacchi was one of the first 'systems' coaches where it was all about designing a system that worked to make the effectiveness of a team exceed the sum of individual talents. He did this at AC Milan with other great players that were willing to fit to a system (Gullit, Rijkaard, Van Basten) but it didn't work with Baggio with Italy where him and Baggio were always at odds.

    Other teams built their team around playmaker players, Totti, Riquelme and the likes, the problem was the holding midfielder then evolved to a player that could stifle a playmaker and if that was all a team had, the threat could be negated. The managers that have been really successful in recent years: Rijkaard, Guardiola, Klopp etc have been managers that have had a system where even when they've had talented individuals, the individuals have been low-ego enough to work inside a system.

    This is a big point IMO for Messi - he could probably look better and be more glamourous if he wanted it to be all about him, and some of what I said before about how Maradona got in the game more than Messi was undoubtedly because Maradona wasn't a systems man, the system was play through Maradona. This is because Maradona played in teams far inferior to the ones Messi has played in.

    So although I always argue for Maradona as being the best, I would accept this point and credit it to Messi: he is not a glory hunter wanting to look good, he is a systems man and he uses his great talent within that. Which is why in the modern game he's been a player that has won a million medals rather than having the image of misunderstood genius'. It's probably also because he was schooled in football the Barca way.
    Good post but one thing I would flag is the distance Messi runs. He doesn't track back or press from the front and instead 'saves' himself for attacking bursts. It's the only way he's able to play 70 games a season.
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    (Original post by C.Almasy)
    Any real football fan will tell you that Pele's is one of the most shameless self promoters of all time, and overexaggerates his own talents when the team he was in was great. Maradona is above Pele, and in my mind, above Messi after the evidence of this tournament.

    Also keep in mind, Maradona played on terrible pitches, with higher standards of defensive play, and also with way more lenient (and therefore dangerous) refereeing on tackles. He was really hacked at by the opposition back in those days.
    Compare scoring records and Ballon D'Or's...no contest.
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    I wouldn't say so... correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm 90% sure George Best has no world cup medal and no-one would deny that he's a world great
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    GOAT.

    0.13 seconds shouldn't even be possible
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    (Original post by mrdoovde1)
    LOOOL how can people say Maradonna and Pele are the greatest of all time without even seeing them play once bar 2 minutes BBC clips. Those two played in a generation of football well below the level of standard it is now.

    Messi has and will be the greatest player that ever lived.
    This is a truly ridiculous statement.

    You can watch a bunch of Pele's games with Santos, and nearly all the Brazil WC games online, and Maradonna was playing at a time when football was televised loads. If you actually did some research, you can document the majority of their careers through full matches.

    The fact they get touted as they greatest is because they are both still alive. Brazilian fans prefer Garrincha to Pele, but, as he is dead, he is not around to stake his claim.

    Same as Puskas (who actually is the greatest player ever), Hidegkuti, Kocsis, and nearly all the Hungary team. Their lack of self-publicity has ruined their chances of being at the top.

    Ironic that it took until Alfredo Di Stefano's death for his reputation to go through the roof - despite the fact that he had a career even Messi would be jealous of.
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    (Original post by billybo_h)
    This is a truly ridiculous statement.

    You can watch a bunch of Pele's games with Santos, and nearly all the Brazil WC games online, and Maradonna was playing at a time when football was televised loads. If you actually did some research, you can document the majority of their careers through full matches.

    The fact they get touted as they greatest is because they are both still alive. Brazilian fans prefer Garrincha to Pele, but, as he is dead, he is not around to stake his claim.

    Same as Puskas (who actually is the greatest player ever), Hidegkuti, Kocsis, and nearly all the Hungary team. Their lack of self-publicity has ruined their chances of being at the top.

    Ironic that it took until Alfredo Di Stefano's death for his reputation to go through the roof - despite the fact that he had a career even Messi would be jealous of.
    I didn't say there aren't video of them available, I'm saying 99% of people who judge them to be the best players ever have never seen them play and make there judgement solely based on reputation and statistics alone.
 
 
 
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