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State school kids are less intelligent than other types. Discuss. Watch

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    (Original post by Guren)
    Read these comments before slating down state school kids. They do better at university.

    "For those from disadvantaged backgrounds - Do these students also hold down a job whilst studying to help cover expenses? It would be interesting to see if the above study also took this into consideration."

    "I was privately educated and really struggled once out of the forced learning environment. I feel my exam results were not reflective of my ability to think but my ability to remember what had been drummed into me. Once out of that environment and having to do for myself I nearly failed my course and the career I wanted. Admittedly this was 30 years ago but I don't think much has changed."
    do you mean during school or university? because the way student finance goes once disadvantaged kids start uni they shouldn't need to work at all
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    I did the majority of my education in private school except years 12 & 13 (the first time). I got mediocre GCSE & A-Level grades- I found at both the private and state school so much of it was down to me. I certainly didn't feel spoon fed at the private school. The teachers at the private school could help explain the content to you but they couldn't force you to remember it and I struggle with remembering vast quantities of information nor was I interested in most of my GCSE subjects. And all of the people I know who went to private schools have done just as well as the state educated people I know at university.
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    It's really very simple. Private schools only accept people of who are capable of demonstrating a certain level of academic ability. State schools accept everyone so they will therefore have a wider spectrum of people. Not hard to grasp. Also high intelligence is not shown only in one's ability to regurgitate stuff for exams.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It's really very simple. Private schools only accept people of who are capable of demonstrating a certain level of academic ability.
    You mean capable of paying the fees.


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    (Original post by Bloxorus)
    You mean capable of paying the fees.


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    That as well. Which brings on the whole that child is most likely going to come from at least a middle class family which also improves it chances of doing well academically.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Private school kids are actually less intelligent, they have a lot more help to get their grades and with their uni applications, and this is clearly shown by the fact state schoolers do better at uni.


    I'm not saying everyone at private school is stupider than everyone at state school, but that your average state schooler at uni is cleverer than your average private schooler at uni.



    Cue pissy private school kids not admitting their privelage and getting mad that I pointed out people from state school have to put in far more effort to get the same grades/into uni.


    Edit: On another note, very sad to see camp hill girls slipping well behind camp hill boys, we got better results the year I was there. This years girls have clearly let the side down.
    State schoolers do better than private schoolers if they achieve the same grades. Private schoolers achieve much better grades on average, so it's not possible to infer that the 'average state schooler at uni is cleverer than your average private schooler at uni' (since state schools will be overrepresented at unis with lower entry requirements, and private schools at those with higher grade requirements).

    Interestingly, at Cambridge, they've looked at state vs private school Tripos performance for A*AA, A*A*A, and A*A*A* students and found very little difference between the two. I think state schoolers with similar grades to private schoolers do marginally better at science subjects, but marginally worse at arts subjects - but the difference is within a standard deviation in both cases. So perhaps at the top end the same doesn't apply.

    Oh and I'm a state schooler who went to private school for 6th form.
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    ' Private schoolers achieve much better grades on average, '

    If I remember accurately the research shows private schooling gives about half a grade advantage. Not a much better grade but slightly better. These are an average of course: some private school pupils will do a lot better than some state school pupils and vice versa.

    As we know private schools vary from the Westminster/Etons, with competitive entry and huge financial imput, to the rather poor offerings, paying rather poor salaries to rather poor staff, with poor facilities: there merely to save your children from having to go to a Comprehensive school/ Secondary Modern school if they failed the 11+. Ditto State schools - some are great ; some are not.

    What is interesting and surprising is comparing results from private schools and comprehensive schools in the same area.
    It is not always what you might expect with the state sector doing better than the private at A level. You wonder why the parents bother forking out the fees. Perhaps they haven't done their homework or perhaps its the social segregation they're after?
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    Sure if you ignore every other factor, like the quality of the education, the discipline, the opportunities available, etc. Private school students are no more intelligent, they were simply born into a system which maximises their potential, and if that isn't viable, they simply buy success.
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    Private schools have a distinct set of norms and values that distinguish them from the plebs who go to comprehensives. Private schools teach to lead, comprehensives teach to follow.
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    Private schools and Grammar schools are usually selective and so I would say on average state schoolers are less intelligent
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    I am going to a private school for sixth having been at state for all my life. I think its just that private schools have the money to give pupils the tools necessary to develop in intelligence I guess. I don't think state school kids are stupid or should be seen as unintelligent in comparison.
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    (Original post by Paralove)
    Considering that many private and all grammar schools are selective based on academic ability, it is an unfair comparison to make. Also, the standards of teaching, on the whole, tend to be better in grammar/private schools thus meaning state school kids at a 'worse' school do not have the same opportunity to fulfill their academic potential.
    Academic potential is a dumb pleb concept. Clearly there are natural variations in intelligence, but this idea that one can 'max out' is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    Academic potential is a dumb pleb concept. Clearly there are natural variations in intelligence, but this idea that one can 'max out' is ridiculous.
    There are a lot of kids who would do waaaay better in a private/grammar environment as opposed to your average comprehensive. I know several in my school who could have easily have gotten straight B/A grades upwards, if they had had better teaching, better work ethic and weren't surrounded by disruptive pupils, and who instead were lucky to get their 5 C grades. Of course there are those who will work regardless and achieve their potential, and there are great comprehensive schools, but there are others who would benefit from a less disruptive/poor environment.
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    (Original post by Paralove)
    There are a lot of kids who would do waaaay better in a private/grammar environment as opposed to your average comprehensive. I know several in my school who could have easily have gotten straight B/A grades upwards, if they had had better teaching, better work ethic and weren't surrounded by disruptive pupils, and who instead were lucky to get their 5 C grades. Of course there are those who will work regardless and achieve their potential, and there are great comprehensive schools, but there are others who would benefit from a less disruptive/poor environment.
    Everyone would benefit from a less disruptive/poor environment, and a strong work ethic with solid support from peer groups and the family. Unfortunately some families are more keen on milking the system and making life difficult for teachers and their friends. Comprehensive schools are just as segregated underneath.
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    I've never been to a state school so I can't really compare, but I wouldn't say state school students are less intelligent. What I think is that private schools invest more time into your education - better resources, smaller classes etc. so I'd say you're more likely to come out with an overall better education, which (usually) means better grades.
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    (Original post by Leftee)
    How well do the private school kids do once they leave their cosy, mollycoddled environment though. :sly:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26773830

    :eviltongue:
    "It found on some measures state pupils were significantly more likely to get a 2:1 than their private school peers."


    The term "some measures" really needs to be put into context. It could quite easily be that on these measures, state school pupils are more likely to get a 2:1 than private school pupils because they tend to go into less difficult degree courses at less competitive universities where it is easier to get a 2:1, for example.

    It has yet to be established that the comparison being made is actually a fair one, for judging the relative academic ability of former state school pupils against other pupils.
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    (Original post by Paralove)
    Considering that many private and all grammar schools are selective based on academic ability, it is an unfair comparison to make. Also, the standards of teaching, on the whole, tend to be better in grammar/private schools thus meaning state school kids at a 'worse' school do not have the same opportunity to fulfill their academic potential.
    Completely this.

    All the people pointing out university performance are ignoring the fact that close to 100% of privately educated people will go to university, whereas only about 50% of state schoolers will.


    (Original post by Sazzy890)
    Not receiving a good education does not equate to being unintelligent. Intelligence is to do with the capacity to learn, not the quality of education. I bet if you put an intelligent state school student in a good school, their grades would go up.
    Intelligence is definitely linked to the quality of education you receive. It is a peculiarly enduring myth that intelligence is somehow fixed and innate. While some of it is innate, it is also greatly affected by experience as well. Furthermore, even if you did look at pure genetic intelligence, private school children would still be more intelligent, because their parents tend to be more intelligent (on the general rule that rich people are smarter, which despite many exceptions is a pretty solid rule).
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    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    Completely this.

    All the people pointing out university performance are ignoring the fact that close to 100% of privately educated people will go to university, whereas only about 50% of state schoolers will.




    Intelligence is definitely linked to the quality of education you receive. It is a peculiarly enduring myth that intelligence is somehow fixed and innate. While some of it is innate, it is also greatly affected by experience as well. Furthermore, even if you did look at pure genetic intelligence, private school children would still be more intelligent, because their parents tend to be more intelligent (on the general rule that rich people are smarter, which despite many exceptions is a pretty solid rule).
    It's difficult to determine how much is passed by genetics and how much is passed by memetics, on the one hand you could argue that the reason they are more intelligent is because of a long tradition of excellence, or on the other hand because of the spreading of their value systems.
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    (Original post by DErasmus)
    It's difficult to determine how much is passed by genetics and how much is passed by memetics, on the one hand you could argue that the reason they are more intelligent is because of a long tradition of excellence, or on the other hand because of the spreading of their value systems.
    There are numerous studies of intelligence and heritability that attempt to control for environmental effects and still find a sizable genetic factor.
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    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    There are numerous studies of intelligence and heritability that attempt to control for environmental effects and still find a sizable genetic factor.
    How is this done? I'm skeptical of controlling environmental effects it sounds like a behaviorist approach that ignores the importance of individual symbols.
 
 
 
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