Tories are considering reducing ESA disability benefit by 30% Watch

Poll: Should disabled people bare more austerity?
Yes (13)
30.23%
No (30)
69.77%
MatureStudent36
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Wissenschaft)
Pretty much. I'm pro EU; but some of their human rights courts ('right to be forgotten' and all that) seem to be driven by idealists out of touch with reality.
Agreed.

That's what happens when you set up a system with a lack of accountability.
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Jammy Duel
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#42
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Illegal to be poor likes to pull out arbitrary numbers that don't reflect reality.
The thing is, "experts" reckon you can do it on £12, although acknowledge in reality it could be up to double because some people can't cook very well.
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illegaltobepoor
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#43
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#43
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Illegal to be poor likes to pull out arbitrary numbers that don't reflect reality.
When someone who is struggling because of high rent costs they often have low amounts of money for food. You dismiss this just as you dismiss anything negative about Government policy.
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MatureStudent36
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#44
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
The thing is, "experts" reckon you can do it on £12, although acknowledge in reality it could be up to double because some people can't cook very well.
Agreed.

We've set into play a situation where a sizeable portion of society are demanding more and more from the majority.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
When someone who is struggling because of high rent costs they often have low amounts of money for food. You dismiss this just as you dismiss anything negative about Government policy.
Their rent is paid as is their council tax.

I'm not expecting living on benefits to be easy. It's not meant to be. It's a safety net.

But I despair every time they show something on tv about how hard it is and the people they show smoke like a chimney, have huge flat screen TVs and no incentive to work.

It's those people you should be worried about. They're the ones who are taking the money away from the most in need. Not the government.
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Jammy Duel
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#46
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Agreed.

We've set into play a situation where a sizeable portion of society are demanding more and more from the majority.
And I wonder how many of those that "have nothing" and "need" extra state support to get by could do so by doing what the better off have to do if they want something: make cuts to save money to spend elsewhere. I wonder how much the average jobless person drinks and smokes every week.
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Hopple
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#47
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If you're worried about what people are spending their benefits on, use vouchers. Or give them some sort of credit card that only works on approved types of things.
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Jammy Duel
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#48
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(Original post by Hopple)
If you're worried about what people are spending their benefits on, use vouchers. Or give them some sort of credit card that only works on approved types of things.
I would love for that to happen, but the proposition makes liberals cry, and you aren't allowed to do anything that makes liberals cry.
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nulli tertius
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#49
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(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
Because when you get something like Cancer you go though a period where your needs increase. For example when a Cancer patient has chemotherapy the immune system shuts down for a while and this makes the person prone to every virus and common cold upon contact. So things like bleach have to be used on all things in the home to kill bacteria on surfaces. Also when you have no immune system your prone to cold weather. So disability costs money. Its not cheap.
However the two largest causes of incapacity in the country are not cancer, they are low back pain and depression.

Moreover, the unemployed have costs specific to their unemployment as well. They incur stationary and postage costs, travel costs and the costs of maintaining clothing suitable for interviews.

Your explanation does not justify why people in receipt of ESA should be receiving 30% more income than the unemployed.
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scrotgrot
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And I wonder how many of those that "have nothing" and "need" extra state support to get by could do so by doing what the better off have to do if they want something: make cuts to save money to spend elsewhere. I wonder how much the average jobless person drinks and smokes every week.
Sorry mate, you're a ****ing idiot. Well off people can cut easily because the cost of living is the SAME FOR EVERYONE. Those on the breadline cannot.

I don't wonder how much the average jobless person drinks and smokes each week. They don't. Cost it out and you will see they simply couldn't afford it.

After council tax, bedroom tax, making up shortfall in rent not covered by housing benefit, utility bills, phone top-up for contacting employers, and bus fare to the job centre and back I'd be surprised if jobseekers had 20 quid a week to spend. Heaven forbid that an appliance should fail or some other large cost.

And even if they somehow can afford alcohol, for Christ's sake, I can't think of anyone who deserves it more. I would kill myself if I were in their position. They're not lazy or feckless: there just aren't any jobs. A knowledge and services economy produces 5-10% unemployment no matter how good or bad the wider economy due to labour market elasticity. Thatcher knew this because she'd actually read a book or two and that's why she put all the miners on incapacity benefit in the first place.

Mostly poor people eat unhealthy ready meals because they can't afford to switch the bloody oven on. Look out, because if you don't stand with them, as living costs rise they'll die and you'll be in their position.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by scrotgrot)
Sorry mate, you're a ****ing idiot. Well off people can cut easily because the cost of living is the SAME FOR EVERYONE. Those on the breadline cannot.
And you're calling me the idiot? Nice joke.

I don't wonder how much the average jobless person drinks and smokes each week. They don't. Cost it out and you will see they simply couldn't afford it.

After council tax, bedroom tax, making up shortfall in rent not covered by housing benefit, utility bills, phone top-up for contacting employers, and bus fare to the job centre and back I'd be surprised if jobseekers had 20 quid a week to spend. Heaven forbid that an appliance should fail or some other large cost.
Well, I just punched some numbers and it came out with ~£55 per week for utilities and food, more if not too lazy to walk which is plenty

And even if they somehow can afford alcohol, for Christ's sake, I can't think of anyone who deserves it more. I would kill myself if I were in their position. They're not lazy or feckless: there just aren't any jobs. A knowledge and services economy produces 5-10% unemployment no matter how good or bad the wider economy due to labour market elasticity. Thatcher knew this because she'd actually read a book or two and that's why she put all the miners on incapacity benefit in the first place.
If there aren't the jobs then how are the employment figures going up? If there aren't the jobs how are you getting the Poles, Romanians, etc coming over here and into employment?

Mostly poor people eat unhealthy ready meals because they can't afford to switch the bloody oven on. Look out, because if you don't stand with them, as living costs rise they'll die and you'll be in their position.
I think the funny thing about this is that living off ready meals isn't even much cheaper, if at all, than eating healthily. As stated, can be done on £12 per week. Now tell me,how easily do you live off ready meals for £12 per week? And the cost of living is going to rise irrespective of whether I "stand with them" or not, well, I suppose deflation is always an option.
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illegaltobepoor
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#52
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#52
(Original post by scrotgrot)
Sorry mate, you're a ****ing idiot. Well off people can cut easily because the cost of living is the SAME FOR EVERYONE. Those on the breadline cannot.

I don't wonder how much the average jobless person drinks and smokes each week. They don't. Cost it out and you will see they simply couldn't afford it.

After council tax, bedroom tax, making up shortfall in rent not covered by housing benefit, utility bills, phone top-up for contacting employers, and bus fare to the job centre and back I'd be surprised if jobseekers had 20 quid a week to spend. Heaven forbid that an appliance should fail or some other large cost.

And even if they somehow can afford alcohol, for Christ's sake, I can't think of anyone who deserves it more. I would kill myself if I were in their position. They're not lazy or feckless: there just aren't any jobs. A knowledge and services economy produces 5-10% unemployment no matter how good or bad the wider economy due to labour market elasticity. Thatcher knew this because she'd actually read a book or two and that's why she put all the miners on incapacity benefit in the first place.

Mostly poor people eat unhealthy ready meals because they can't afford to switch the bloody oven on. Look out, because if you don't stand with them, as living costs rise they'll die and you'll be in their position.
What really needs to be put out there on the mainstream is the cost of being unemployed. And costs need to be shown so the narrative of the nasty party can be tore to shreds as ideological garbage.

I think that is going to be my project for the month. Working out how much it costs to be unemployed. I will do about 5 examples each in a different environment. Mega-city, City, Sub-urban, Town and Rural.

Then it will just be a matter of getting the website trending.
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scrotgrot
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#53
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And you're calling me the idiot? Nice joke.
You're so out of touch you think the cost of living is about lifestyle? It costs the same to eat and heat your home for everyone.

Well, I just punched some numbers and it came out with ~£55 per week for utilities and food, more if not too lazy to walk which is plenty
OK, let's see them then.

If there aren't the jobs then how are the employment figures going up? If there aren't the jobs how are you getting the Poles, Romanians, etc coming over here and into employment?
Workfare. People who have some savings/families signing off JSA. People going "self-employed". Zero-hours contracts, part-time contracts and other "jobs" that don't actually give enough money to live on. Newsflash, it's not about how many people "are employed" (that is, the figure not claiming JSA), it's about whether they can afford to live or not.

Poland is now too rich for Poles to want to work over here. No Romanians have come. But immigrants work for less than the minimum wage and live in unheated sheds illegally rented out in people's back gardens, so...

Work is just one route to getting enough money to live on, and it's increasingly outdated as we move to a knowledge/services economy with a constant 5-10% unemployment rate. One day we will have to choose what type of society we want: one where people not otherwise occupied are either genocided or forced into indentured slavery, or one where we are all given a citizen's income and then we can all share in the economic and happiness benefits of actually getting paid properly for our time/getting paid to do something we're passionate about.

I think the funny thing about this is that living off ready meals isn't even much cheaper, if at all, than eating healthily. As stated, can be done on £12 per week. Now tell me,how easily do you live off ready meals for £12 per week? And the cost of living is going to rise irrespective of whether I "stand with them" or not, well, I suppose deflation is always an option.
Yes, really "funny". A jobseeker with no savings or family has not got much more than £12 a week after the outgoings I mentioned, particularly as his stuff is probably always breaking, so any tiny sum he does manage to save is soon gone. Btw to get the £12 you usually have to be able to walk miles between supermarkets and small shops which people on ESA, who are those under discussion, manifestly cannot do. And then you have to live with the uncertainty of not knowing what the gas bill will be at the end of the month. And for some people their utilities are probably being turned off and on every month so they can't even use the hob even if they wanted to.

So naive about the cost of living, it doesn't have to constantly rise at any more than the rate of population growth, which in the past 50 years has never gone above 0.8% per year.

Only reason it constantly rises is the concentration of wealth at the top and the polarisation of the economy into rentiers and tenants. Somehow I don't think you'll come out on the right side of that equation, the odds are stacked against you.
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scrotgrot
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#54
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
However the two largest causes of incapacity in the country are not cancer, they are low back pain and depression.

Moreover, the unemployed have costs specific to their unemployment as well. They incur stationary and postage costs, travel costs and the costs of maintaining clothing suitable for interviews.

Your explanation does not justify why people in receipt of ESA should be receiving 30% more income than the unemployed.
Listen to yourself. The unemployed should be receiving 30% more income, not cutting the ESA income.

Lower back pain is debilitating. I have known several people with it. It's agony and they have to take strong medication.

Depression is debilitating too, but I guess with your retrograde attitude to medicine you won't open your wallet if it's something you can't see, no matter what I say.

Just grow the **** up and pay. This is literally why we have civilisation. You're naive if you think your NI will actually be reduced by the massive £129 a year it costs you to support unemployment benefit, or, if you prefer, the £2000 a year it costs you to support all benefits that are not pensions, including housing benefit, DLA, ESA, JSA, income support, bereavement, attendance allowance, child benefits, ....................
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by scrotgrot)
Listen to yourself. The unemployed should be receiving 30% more income, not cutting the ESA income.

Lower back pain is debilitating. I have known several people with it. It's agony and they have to take strong medication.

Depression is debilitating too, but I guess with your retrograde attitude to medicine you won't open your wallet if it's something you can't see, no matter what I say.

Just grow the **** up and pay. This is literally why we have civilisation. You're naive if you think your NI will actually be reduced by the massive £129 a year it costs you to support unemployment benefit, or, if you prefer, the £2000 a year it costs you to support all benefits that are not pensions, including housing benefit, DLA, ESA, JSA, income support, bereavement, attendance allowance, child benefits, ....................
Lower back pain and depression.

Two afflictions that are incredibly hard to diagnose and very easy to fake.
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scrotgrot
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Lower back pain and depression.

Two afflictions that are incredibly hard to diagnose and very easy to fake.
I know. Also, two afflictions that are quite common and very easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'd sooner overpay the circa £8.5bn that goes on this sort of benefit (I included ESA and legacy IB), the huge sum of £223 per working age person per year, than have any of my fellow citizens living in agony and penury in the seventh richest country in the world.

It comes down to what do you want society to be like.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by scrotgrot)
You're so out of touch you think the cost of living is about lifestyle? It costs the same to eat and heat your home for everyone.
Does it not also include the price of said home, in which case to say that the cost is the same for everybody is totally laughable. It isn't laughable because it's based on lifestyle, it's laughable because expenses are different in different parts of the country. In fact, just on what you gave it's trivially false, last I checked the temperature wasn't constant across the country, it isn't warm enough there is no need for heating, ergo different parts of the country have different heating bills. Beyond that, different groups of buildings will be more or less efficient at keeping in the heat and thus, again, not the same cost.

OK, let's see them then.
Let's have a look, housing benefit covers housing, council tax support brings council tax down to ~£4 per week. JSA is 72, so that brings post council tax down to 68. The buses for me would be £2 per day, but then again, walking distance. There you go, >£55.
Of course, it's also possible to input figures where things are far less favourable, it isn't really possible to have a single figure covering all.



Workfare. People who have some savings/families signing off JSA. People going "self-employed". Zero-hours contracts, part-time contracts and other "jobs" that don't actually give enough money to live on. Newsflash, it's not about how many people "are employed" (that is, the figure not claiming JSA), it's about whether they can afford to live or not.
Funny, because last I checked, excluding travel expenses, you're better off in work, even if it is only very minorly, ergo, still travel excluded, if JSA can afford to live then in work also can. Then again, they would already be paying travel expenses (unless walking to job center).

Poland is now too rich for Poles to want to work over here. No Romanians have come. But immigrants work for less than the minimum wage and live in unheated sheds illegally rented out in people's back gardens, so...
Not a single Romanian then? What about all those Eastern Europerans working, for example, in the supermarkets? Do the supermarkets still pay <NMW? And would those who are as described not be not included in half the stats anyway?

Work is just one route to getting enough money to live on, and it's increasingly outdated as we move to a knowledge/services economy with a constant 5-10% unemployment rate. One day we will have to choose what type of society we want: one where people not otherwise occupied are either genocided or forced into indentured slavery, or one where we are all given a citizen's income and then we can all share in the economic and happiness benefits of actually getting paid properly for our time/getting paid to do something we're passionate about.
Sounds mighty socialist.


Yes, really "funny". A jobseeker with no savings or family has not got much more than £12 a week after the outgoings I mentioned, particularly as his stuff is probably always breaking, so any tiny sum he does manage to save is soon gone.
Hmmm, cheap stuff may be more likely to break, but where are they getting these things from? The tip?

Btw to get the £12 you usually have to be able to walk miles between supermarkets and small shops which people on ESA, who are those under discussion, manifestly cannot do.
Well, when you look at it the best prices are at maybe a couple of places, beyond that the prices are generally very similar, and then beyond even that, you get your price promises which means that, as long as the place you shop does it, it's largely irrelevant where's cheapest for each single item.

And then you have to live with the uncertainty of not knowing what the gas bill will be at the end of the month. And for some people their utilities are probably being turned off and on every month so they can't even use the hob even if they wanted to.

So naive about the cost of living, it doesn't have to constantly rise at any more than the rate of population growth, which in the past 50 years has never gone above 0.8% per year.

Only reason it constantly rises is the concentration of wealth at the top and the polarisation of the economy into rentiers and tenants. Somehow I don't think you'll come out on the right side of that equation, the odds are stacked against you.
I would be interested to see the sources for a lot of what you say, considering just how doom and gloom it all is, for example the utilities on and off from one month to the rest, just how frequent that is. Is it a case of it happens to 1% of them so you act as if it's the norm, or that it actually is the norm.
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Observatory
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illegaltobepoor, you are clearly not stupid, have access to a computer, and are able to spend a lot of time using it in a, while not exactly productive, nonetheless intellectually demanding fashion.

Have you considered simply getting a job doing data entry, programming, tech support or something from home? Then you might not need to obsess every moment about benefits policy, and might live a happier life in general.
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alicecb
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I think disabled people should get the same amount as anyone else on the doll. They're not worth as much as non disabled people and that's the harsh reality of it. If you can do less things, you're worth less money to an employer. Cuts have to be made everywhere, and taxes are really high as it is. Getting the amount of money they do for doing nothing is a privilege, not a right. They get more than some people who work hard for their money. I don't hate physically disabled people, I just don't think they should get special treatment.
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RumpeIstiltskin
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Agreed.

That's what happens when you set up a system with a lack of accountability.
Protection of individual rights rather than that of huge businesses like Google? Sounds good to me
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