Do you feel we need revolution? Watch

Obiejess
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Doctor_Einstein)
Are you saying you think the world should have just allowed Hitler to take over their nation?
The West caused Hitlers rise to power in the first place.

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swanderfeild
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#42
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#42
No, any such revolution in a democratic country must by definition be undemocratic or unnecessary. Either supporters can shift power via democratic elections without bloodshed or they dont command majority, in both cases revolution is not the answer.
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Chlorophile
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#43
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#43
(Original post by KingBradly)
I think you need to stop thinking of the West and the East as two separate entities. Saudi Arabia, the biggest country in the Middle East, has always been a very close ally of the USA and the UK, and it is also one of the biggest funders of terrorist groups. The West isn't the sole instigator. It really isn't as simple as the West vs the East. It's a complex tapestry of different relationships, with plenty of clandestine and backhanded stuff going on behind the scenes. Saying the West is responsible for all the problems in the Muslim world just shows naivety.

I'm aware of that, I was responding to someone who initiated those terms in the first place. However, there definitely is a divide, even if that divide has rough edges. Or more specifically, there's the United States and the countries that it likes and the countries it doesn't.
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Doctor_Einstein
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Obiejess)
The West caused Hitlers rise to power in the first place.

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Regardless of what caused Hitler to come to power, you must acknowledge a war was necessary to stop him correct? And you must acknowledge that stopping Hitler was a good thing. But surely you can't acknowledge that the war of stopping Hitler was "wonderful".

No war is ever wonderful, and no revolution is ever wonderful for the people involved. Only after hundreds of years when all is forgotten may it become so. Would you sacrifice your own life to fight for this revolution that the UK doesn't really need?
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felamaslen
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Chlorophile)
It really isn't in their interest to make life-saving drugs because the life-saving drugs don't rake in the money, Viagra and Neurophen does. There's a ridiculous amount of corruption in the pharmaceutical industry to the point where it's actually a joke.

The fact that our society is better than living in some desperate african community doesn't mean that we can't do better. And to be perfectly honest, with our complete disregard of the environment, it very probably will get worse in the near future.

"The free world" is only at war with certain Muslim countries because of the West's absurd foreign policy in these regions. The problems in the Muslim world are completely our own creation and if you don't think governments milk the hell out of terrorism, I really think you're not thinking straight. In comparison with other things, terrorism really doesn't pose a serious threat to anyone and the massive affronts to civil liberties that have been taken as a result of this are completely disproportionate. And once again, the fact that we've got less censoring than Iran and China doesn't mean that we're not perfect. For intellectual property, it violates liberties in so many different fashions. Copyright is achieving the complete opposite of what it was created for. As a result of lobbying by various industries, Copyright now lasts for so long that it completely stifles innovation and creativity rather than driving it. The same industries are largely responsible for removing swathes of perfectly legitimate internet content for the same reasons.
People like their viagra and anti-depressants and painkillers, don't they. What are you going to do - ban them because you don't personally like them? Is it really that big of an injustice that major research goes into, and major profit comes out of, helping people enjoy their lives?

I never said that the UK can't do better. I just said that a revolution is likely to make things worse, and that if you want to make it better, you'll have much more success by doing so within the current political system. You are like a builder who burns down his house every time he puts a brick in slightly the wrong place.

It is a joke - an unfunny and thoroughly offensive joke - to say that Islamism is caused by the West. Islamism is caused by hatred of freedom (and of Jews) and a desire to see the entire world run under Sharia law. It is the fascism of the age. If you really believe that jihadists bomb Shia mosques in Iraq, or murder Jews in France, or take hostage Christian girls in Nigeria, or shoot Pakistani schoolgirls in the head because they have some legitimate grievance - let alone one stemming from some Western wrongdoing - then you have lost your mind. You are certainly of no use in this war.

It is a cruel and seemingly sadistic remark to say that terrorism "doesn't pose a serious threat to anyone". Would you say that to any of the groups I've mentioned above? Would you go up to the brave hero Malala Yousafzai and say that no, the Taliban are not really worth fighting?

You haven't told me what part of the internet the USA censors. And yet you named this country as the only country which does so ("i.e. USA"), when in reality it is an example of a country which does not do so. (Or if it does, to a very small degree.) While other countries exist which really do censor the internet and to a massive degree.

I do agree that things like patent trolling can be counter-productive. But this is an example of something which could use a tweak of some sort. Not a revolution.
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Obiejess
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Doctor_Einstein)
Regardless of what caused Hitler to come to power, you must acknowledge a war was necessary to stop him correct? And you must acknowledge that stopping Hitler was a good thing. But surely you can't acknowledge that the war of stopping Hitler was "wonderful".

No war is ever wonderful, and no revolution is ever wonderful for the people involved. Only after hundreds of years when all is forgotten may it become so. Would you sacrifice your own life to fight for this revolution that the UK doesn't really need?
-Not part of the debate-
I'm too sleepy

Was just playing Devil's advocate.

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Doctor_Einstein
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#47
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#47
(Original post by RoryEwan)
I perhaps stated the course of action abit strongly, if not a 'revolution', then what course of action would you feel best? Btw, thanks for all the replies, I only expected 1 or 2 but came back to 2 pages!
Revolutions are fine but they take too long and too many people die. Instead we need a revolution that lasts just 1 day each year. A purge day.

All citizens should be given weapons, and there should be 1 purge day each year where certain laws, such as stealing, killing etc, don't apply. This will help bring equality to the lands. The poor can thus storm the rich on purge day resulting in equality.
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KingBradly
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#48
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#48
(Original post by Chlorophile)
I'm aware of that, I was responding to someone who initiated those terms in the first place. However, there definitely is a divide, even if that divide has rough edges. Or more specifically, there's the United States and the countries that it likes and the countries it doesn't.
I don't think that's the case. The US maybe extremely powerful, but then the Saudi Arabian embassy is one of largest and most powerful in the US. There are very rich people, both in America and the Middle East, that are in cahoots with each other, and that's about as much as we can say. But saying it's America the bad guys vs the poor Muslims just sounds like pantomime. It really isn't black and white, at all. The modern world is more like a complex, constantly transforming organism, rather the idea of the binary, black and white, good and bad world which is propagated by almost all news media, both left and right.
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Rakas21
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#49
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#49
(Original post by KingBradly)
A lot of people were fighting for a more liberal democracy, especially in Egypt. Unfortunately though these places are very corrupt. Also, they're still not prepared to be fully liberal, which creates problems. As much of a disaster it may have been, I think in the long run it will have a beneficial effect, as it shows the signs of enlightenment just starting to arise across the most unenlightened parts of the world.
Unfortunately the Arab Spring highlighted the fact that the people protesting may have different views to the population at large. People may have campaigning in Tarir Square for a secular, liberal government but at the polls it was the Muslim Brotherhood who won convincingly. The same situation occurred even in Turkey where the President has been re-elected despite being more pro-Muslim and pro-Russia versus the friendship with the west of past decades.

So far as i'm aware, the only country that got rid of its tyrant and elected secularists was Tunisia just the other week and to be fair, even under dictatorship it was always very pro-Europe and one of the less bad regimes. Other states like Morocco have moved closer to constitutional monarchies which is what they really need though the job is not done.

It's unfortunate, but some places really are culturally inferior when compared to the west. They don't support civil values.

(Original post by felamaslen)
I have more hope for Iran than Egypt to be fair. Although I disagree with people who say that the successor to Ahmadinejad is any less sinister or more "liberal" (I have heard people say that).
Still picked by the supreme leader in an election which may not have been free and fair. An improvement in the sense that he's at least open to talks with the west unlike the hard line stance of the previous leader.
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Rakas21
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Chlorophile)
I'm aware of that, I was responding to someone who initiated those terms in the first place. However, there definitely is a divide, even if that divide has rough edges. Or more specifically, there's the United States and the countries that it likes and the countries it doesn't.
It's loosely a Sunni vs Shia divide which these days is a proxy for the US and Russia.
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Kaiju
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#51
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#51
Not even a little bit.

Give it 20 or so years and there'll likely be civil unrest. I doubt we'll see a full-scale revolution though and it definitely wouldn't be beneficial for the majority of people in this country.
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KingBradly
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Rakas21)
Unfortunately the Arab Spring highlighted the fact that the people protesting may have different views to the population at large. People may have campaigning in Tarir Square for a secular, liberal government but at the polls it was the Muslim Brotherhood who won convincingly. The same situation occurred even in Turkey where the President has been re-elected despite being more pro-Muslim and pro-Russia versus the friendship with the west of past decades.

So far as i'm aware, the only country that got rid of its tyrant and elected secularists was Tunisia just the other week and to be fair, even under dictatorship it was always very pro-Europe and one of the less bad regimes. Other states like Morocco have moved closer to constitutional monarchies which is what they really need though the job is not done.

It's unfortunate, but some places really are culturally inferior when compared to the west. They don't support civil values.



Still picked by the supreme leader in an election which may not have been free and fair. An improvement in the sense that he's at least open to talks with the west unlike the hard line stance of the previous leader.
It's very refreshing to see truly informed, intelligent posts like this on TSR. People usually have so little understanding about the subjects they address that they're unable to realise their own lack of knowledge. However, I can see here that you're clearly far more learned on the subject of the Arab Spring than I am. Kudos.
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thesabbath
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#53
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#53
We already had one. In the 1980s political correctness (cultural Marxism) was relegated to the fringes of the loony left. Now it is the defining, totalitarian ideology of our state.
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felamaslen
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Rakas21)
Still picked by the supreme leader in an election which may not have been free and fair. An improvement in the sense that he's at least open to talks with the west unlike the hard line stance of the previous leader.
Ideally the West should only be"talking" with states which want to uphold basic liberal values. I suspect that Rouhani very much supports the Iranian, anti-American and pro-Islamist status quo, and for that reason he shouldn't be trusted.

Now Iran is a country which really does need a revolution.
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Ggmu!
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#55
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#55
No. It's not even a romantic idea.

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gladders
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#56
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#56
No.

Revolutions are violent, bloody, and unpleasant, and serve to achieve nothing that could not have been attained peacefully. Revolutionary societies always revert to either that status quo ante within a generation, or descend into something far worse.

Look at the French and Russian revolutions. The American revolution was a conservative one, and on of the few ultra-rare incidents or a revolution being constitutional and successful, specifically because it was conservative and limited in its aims.
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RumpleForeskin
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#57
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#57
Guarantee your now being monitored by every major spying association in the UK


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Youis Trollin
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#58
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#58
Will it be televised? and science
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Youis Trollin
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#59
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#59
(Original post by RumpleForeskin)
Guarantee your now being monitored by every major spying association in the UK


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Guarantee everyone is.... 17:55
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The Dictator
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#60
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Yes, against the liberal elite who finance the New World Order.
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