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Why has the NHS suddenly collapsed watch

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    Fat people and old people
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    Firstly, this is about as far from sudden as you can get. The ageing population has been there for, well, 65-70 years. It's long been known that the years will get harder and harder. Next year will be worse, the year after that worse again, until we get over this population bubble in 15-20 years time. It's not only healthcare that will suffer - the huge number of pensioners we are now/will be supporting is going to drain all of the economy.

    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    I think it should be the choice of every Briton to opt in or out of health insurance, and that a competitive market must be created. Say, have the choice between The Co-Operators, Virgin Health, and maybe "the government option" (NHS as-is).
    On what basis would you expect people to make that decision? Do you expect every citizen to look up the 5 year mortality rates for each hospital's thrombolysis treatment whilst they are having their stroke? Or is it in fact going to be like the US - whichever hospital spends the most on image their image?

    Competition works well where there is true choice. If tesco sells you some **** food, you switch to sainsbury's. If a hospital treats your heart attack badly. .. you still do not have a choice! That is not a free market.

    What about elective operations? You do have time to research that right? Well... not really. What ends up happening is what we see in the UK 's private sector - hospitals cherry pick the easy operations so that their stats look good. The second anyone is a little complicated they get sidelined. Most private hospitals in the UK cherry pick so much that if anyone has even a small bled post op they can't deal with it and they have to be rushed into a service that can deal with complicated stuff - the NHS.

    Unlike a lot of people I do actually think there is run for privatisation in the NHS. Patients are very capable of deciding what food they want, and whether a nurse has been kind to them when helping them to the toilet or not. Hence, privatising catering and even limited ward staff makes sense (though not in the way it has been introduced in this country - where hospitals sell rights to a monopoly to a single company and are then somehow surprised when every corner is cut and the company backs out at the first sign of trouble). A wholly privatised healthcare system though is completely crazy. It incentivises doing more and more treatments whether necessary or not (because more treatment = more £££ for the doctors, and the patient has no clue so will always just go with it). It does not conform to the idea of competition and the free market at all and simply results in a healthcare system (the us) that is mocked around the world, costing almost 3x what ours does for worse results than most of eastern Europe. Just look at the cost of obstetrics alone! . The royal birth cost less than the average in many states.

    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    Because it's a government organisation, the NHS is padded out nicely to provide hidden profit, over and above what a private insurance firm would gain.
    That is a bizarre claim. Take a look at what big insurance companies pay their CEOs vs what nhs bosses do, then again at how inefficient the US system is, and get back to us
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    It is partly due to the ageing population and the chronic diseases caused by having a population with a large percentage of obese and elderly people. And it is again partly due to people going to the A&E because GP appointments aren't convenient for them, either because they're selfish idiots or because they fear they'll lose their jobs if they go during work hours.

    But these things haven't massively increased in the past few years. What has happened is that budgets have been slashed for things like social care. So the number of elderly people in hospital has increased, both because they're getting injured more often without that care, and because even if they're healthy, they have to stay in hospital if no suitable living arrangements can be organised. Cuts in charities, local councils, etc Essentially, big cuts in community services means that services which used to be provided in the community until recently aren't, so you have to go to hospital for them.

    Also, there's a staff issue. Staff such as nurses, paramedics have been axed, meaning there aren't enough people any longer to cope with demand. Also, not enough GP's and A&E doctors. We have enough doctors, but junior doctors don't want to go into those specialities due to the stress and work load. The suggestion earlier that GPs are being lazy is complete rubbish. In fact they're under so much stress that theyre going to be put through emotional resilience training similar to what army recruits experience to help counter the high burnout and suicide rates.
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    Agree with sophie. This has been planned - just because there is a history of selling off public own assets + how the currupt out policy makers are. UK is up for sale, and we are sold it is conspiracy if we say it isnt. Buts looking at the facts, it is hard not to think this way.
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    Also to the person who wants to privatise the NHS - the US gov spends almost twice as much on their healthcare system per capita than the UK, despite being completely privatised. Privatised systems are generally inefficient, so if it's your taxes you're worried about, stick to the NHS

    The NHS is one of the most efficient systems in the world, if not the most. We spend barely anything on it compared to other countries. Forget developed nations, we spend less per capita than countries like Sierra Leone. It gives great results for what we pump in. Until recently it gave great results full stop - considered the best system in the world by the commonwealth fund in 2013.

    In a privatised system, what happens to those unlucky enough to be born with chronic conditions? Do you think insurance companies will touch them? As if. Are you willing to let these people suffer without treatment just so you can save some taxes? Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to afford private healthcare or education.
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    Demographic destabilisation makes everything collapse. Health is first because there is an addition of changes in the life of people-they eat and drink unhealthy and don't care. More sick people, less healthy people.
    In a few years the retired people won't get enough money. More old people, less young people. Not enough young people to work and pay taxes. Not enough money for health and other public services.
    Politics may have a share in the problem. But if the population continues to age and sicken there's nothing much anyone could do. And this is not only in the UK.
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    Commies that's who, trynna infect democracy
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    Who says it's collapsed.
    Every year since it's inception the headlines in the papers have been "the NHS is finished" and yet on the wagon rolls...
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    Well the way I see it is this:

    Who pays comprehensive school fees? Taxpayers do. As far as I know, they are financed in no other way---either directly or indirectly by taxes. I know this because the Government profits only by taxing the population, and comp schools are Government-funded. It follows, therefore, that if you got rid of the tax components that finance the school system, the taxpayers would get this money and would therefore be able to use it as they see fit, INCLUDING ON EDUCATION.

    So why not cut out the middle-man entirely? Have schools funded by the parents of the children that go to them.
    ...what? You do realise that the rich pay MORE so that the majority who cant afford it can go to school. This is like talking to a monkey.


    Let me give you an example. It costs 5000 to go to school

    A pays 13000 in taxes
    B pays 2000
    C pays nothing because he is poor

    That means there is enough tax for all three to go to school.

    If you get rid of taxes, only one can afford it.
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    (Original post by Borgia)
    ...what? You do realise that the rich pay MORE so that the majority who cant afford it can go to school. This is like talking to a monkey.


    Let me give you an example. It costs 5000 to go to school

    A pays 13000 in taxes
    B pays 2000
    C pays nothing because he is poor

    That means there is enough tax for all three to go to school.

    If you get rid of taxes, only one can afford it.
    Well, let's make it merit-based instead of need-based, at least. I can understand when someone is poor and intelligent---of course he should be educated. But in that case, let's have competitive entrance exams for pupils.
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    (Original post by Dungarees)
    Also to the person who wants to privatise the NHS - the US gov spends almost twice as much on their healthcare system per capita than the UK, despite being completely privatised. Privatised systems are generally inefficient, so if it's your taxes you're worried about, stick to the NHS

    The NHS is one of the most efficient systems in the world, if not the most. We spend barely anything on it compared to other countries. Forget developed nations, we spend less per capita than countries like Sierra Leone. It gives great results for what we pump in. Until recently it gave great results full stop - considered the best system in the world by the commonwealth fund in 2013.

    In a privatised system, what happens to those unlucky enough to be born with chronic conditions? Do you think insurance companies will touch them? As if. Are you willing to let these people suffer without treatment just so you can save some taxes? Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to afford private healthcare or education.
    Well, I'm lucky enough.
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    Well, let's make it merit-based instead of need-based, at least. I can understand when someone is poor and intelligent---of course he should be educated. But in that case, let's have competitive entrance exams for pupils.
    What? For three year olds? And you don't seem to realise what an impact that would have on this country, having the majority of the populace with less education than in Somalia.

    You are way out of your depth and we are in very shallow water.
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    Because it's a half-baked idea proposed by a Taffy who didn't go to uni and who was a miner's son, and thus who had no idea how government projects work.

    Should have been privatised ages ago.
    Racism, elitism and classism all in one go, topped off with a helping of general idiocy!

    I would consider those things excellent qualifications for running any government project: little chance of selling it all out to vested interests, as the current overprivileged traitors seem so keen on doing.
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    I think it should be the choice of every Briton to opt in or out of health insurance, and that a competitive market must be created. Say, have the choice between The Co-Operators, Virgin Health, and maybe "the government option" (NHS as-is)
    Yeah, that's what we already have, you do realise?

    Of course, it's not complete choice: whenever something happens to a private patient, something complicated and unprofitable to fix, they palm him off onto the NHS!
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    (Original post by SiminaM)
    Demographic destabilisation makes everything collapse. Health is first because there is an addition of changes in the life of people-they eat and drink unhealthy and don't care. More sick people, less healthy people.
    In a few years the retired people won't get enough money. More old people, less young people. Not enough young people to work and pay taxes. Not enough money for health and other public services.
    Politics may have a share in the problem. But if the population continues to age and sicken there's nothing much anyone could do. And this is not only in the UK.
    The *******s will continue taking from us as they have all their lives, whether we can pay or not.

    Lol sorry in retro that was a bit harsh but I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for them
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    If I want private health care, sure, I go and get it---BUT I STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THE NHS!

    In real terms, the closest equivalent would be the Prime Minister saying, "We want everyone to drive, so the government will give you a free Land Rover once you become 17 and pass your driving licence exam. This will be accompanied by an income tax rise to cover some of that extra money." "But what if I want a Mercedes? I don't like Land Rovers." "You can still get a Mercedes, but you'll still need to pay the tax, so I suggest you enjoy your brand new Land Rover."
    So stop your pathetic whining and pay for the NHS, and take ownership of your CHOICE to pay for the private insurance on top.

    Jesus, you right-wingers do whine, don't you? I know you're mainly trolling, but if you really are so rich, you can afford to pay for your choice, unlike the poor if it were all privatised.
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    I think that there are a number of factors. 'It's winter' is no excuse as there has been winter for many thousands if not millions of years, and 'it was Christmas' likewise as that has been celebrated in the UK for at least 1300 years!

    Closure of walk-in centres, difficulty in getting GP appointments, alcohol consumption, and the increased number of people with low incomes having poor diets are contributors I think. Closure of some options over Christmas didn't help.

    Many things could help. Saturday GP appointments and re-opening walk in centres are two.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    So stop your pathetic whining and pay for the NHS, and take ownership of your CHOICE to pay for the private insurance on top.

    Jesus, you right-wingers do whine, don't you? I know you're mainly trolling, but if you really are so rich, you can afford to pay for your choice, unlike the poor if it were all privatised.
    Except it's NOT my choice! I don't want to pay for a service I don't use.

    And I think Labourites are whinier than Tories. Who protested against nuclear weapons? Not Conservatives! Who protested for gay marriage? Not Conservatives! Who protested against involvement in Iraq? Not Conservatives!

    By the way, I'm not rich. Just not blindingly poor, that's all. Parents didn't have to work standing up or saying 'Do you want fries with that?'.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Yeah, that's what we already have, you do realise?

    Of course, it's not complete choice: whenever something happens to a private patient, something complicated and unprofitable to fix, they palm him off onto the NHS!
    No, that's NOT what we have. Britain does not have even a TWO TIER HEALTHCARE SYSTEM! I'd be happy with that if the NHS must be kept.

    But no, if I get lung cancer, I have to wait for chemo even if the patient before me is a smelly, psychologically challenged tramp.
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    (Original post by Schmeckel)
    Except it's NOT my choice! I don't want to pay for a service I don't use.
    Just remind me of the phone number of the private ambulance service you will use if you have a road accident and where is the private A & E department you will be taken to?
 
 
 
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