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What is the difference between sanity and insanity? watch

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    (Original post by Jay84)
    Based on my own experience, the overwhelming opinion of others and just being identify faults in logic that I couldn't see at the time.

    Its a bit like having a dream where you are convinced at the time that the monster is real and he is going to kill you but then you wake up and realise you are in bed and the likelihood is that you were just dreaming, you are aware of the concept of dreams, you know other people have them but you have never actually seen a monster.

    The view I kind of hold of, at least my own, insanity is like that: dreaming whilst awake; breakdown of logic and making giant causal leaps in thinking based on conviction rather than evidence.
    So you look back at your own behaviour, and come to a realisation? As well as, gauging it, based on other people's judgement?

    Yes it is, isn't it.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Well the subject of sanity and insanity at least when related to criminal cases, is a question of how aware one is about either themselves and a situation they may be involved in hence why we have psychotherapists. If a person is judged to be insane they cannot then sentence them to a jail sentence because in the eyes of the law they are unaware of what occurred and there for hold no responsibility for their actions. Which is why they get sent to psychoperapists in order to attempt to cure them of a mental illness.

    Of course different countries have different laws in some you may go to a psychopherapist centre then still serve jail time. Or depending on when the insanity/mental illness occurred you will face court when you are given the all clear.

    So I don't believe that sanity or insanity is simply judged by beliefs one may hold or acts one may commit but more how aware mentally one is about their actions and the situation which they find themselves in. You can commit a horrible crime and still be judged sane because in your mind you are aware and made provable decisions that led you to a certain point, many factors would be looked at in order to prove how insane or sane you are.
    Surely, committing a crime (particularly one that involves physical bodily harm) is an act on insanity itself. How can you make a decision on someone's sanity?
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    Surely, committing a crime (particularly one that involves physical bodily harm) is an act on insanity itself. How can you make a decision on someone's sanity?
    Not necessarily because of societies moral codes of behaviour yeah people will label them insane and yeah some of these criminals do suffer from a mental disorder whether it's being a sociopath/psychopath. Still if they are fully aware even then the court would not judge them insane nor are they insane. If we label them all insane we might as well have no prisons and replace them with pyschopherapy units which is unlikely.

    Also remember many people in normal society are sociopaths/psychopaths they just don't commit crimes or have yet to commit one.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Not necessarily because of societies moral codes of behaviour yeah people will label them insane and yeah some of these criminals do suffer from a mental disorder whether it's being a sociopath/psychopath. Still if they are fully aware even then the court would not judge them insane nor are they insane. If we label them all insane we might as well have no prisons and replace them with pyschopherapy units which is unlikely.

    Also remember many people in normal society are sociopaths/psychopaths they just don't commit crimes or have yet to commit one.

    So yore saying, this moral code is like a litmus test of sanity, if you go against it, that is proof. who has made up this moral code? How do you know someone is aware? What is awareness to you?

    Why is it unlikely?

    Yes I do know that, isn't that worrying?
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    So yore saying, this moral code is like a litmus test of sanity, if you go against it, that is proof. who has made up this moral code? How do you know someone is aware? What is awareness to you?

    Why is it unlikely?

    Yes I do know that, isn't that worrying?
    Well the moral code I mention is only an unwritten general point of view which people in the public may hold, it has nothing to do with law. However, yes you are right in thinking it's a sort of litmus test from the general public's perception that to commit a certain act one must be insane which is not really the case in my view.

    Society makes up moral codes as we go on , just last week I was shocked to find that quite a few tsr users see peadophiles as some sort of victims of a mental illness who deserve sympathy and treatment. You see this is just a tiny representation of society but even here we can see changes in moral thinking.

    On the question of why would we most likely not place these criminal psychopaths/sociopaths in therapy units there are a few factors. I would say most likely once again because of public moralism the public wants to see punishment of those who have committed horrible acts, looking at it this way prison sentences helps keep the peace, imagine the public outrage without them.

    Second reason is the cost would probably be way to high to put all these people through therapy even non criminals find it hard to get the right help.

    Also to some these treatments, this whole field of science psychology is seen as a pseudo science. So at least in my view I would question how serious the progress of treatment was? Could it be proven that the patients have changed? I think its unlikely specially in adults who are stuck in their ways, does not mean there is no hope though in individual cases.

    How I know someone is aware is through discussion and questioning and comparing it to so called normal standards of behaviour and comparing the differences. Not a scientist myself so can't go to in depth, talking from what I have learnt in life through reading of criminal profiles and crime documentaries.

    So awareness to me is someone fully understanding what they say/do and situations they find themselves in. They need to be aware in order to hold full responsibility for any act.

    Also sometimes scientists may search for anomalies in the brain such as low serotonin levels as someone mentioned or even tumors. Some criminals try and dupe these therapists in claiming insanity but fail so it can't be faked unless of course you are somewhat educated in this field if science.

    It's not worrying that you know because the information is out there for all. You may also have experienced interactions or observed people who have psycho/sociopathic traits.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Well the moral code I mention is only an unwritten general point of view which people in the public may hold, it has nothing to do with law. However, yes you are right in thinking it's a sort of litmus test from the general public's perception that to commit a certain act one must be insane which is not really the case in my view.

    Society makes up moral codes as we go on , just last week I was shocked to find that quite a few tsr users see peadophiles as some sort of victims of a mental illness who deserve sympathy and treatment. You see this is just a tiny representation of society but even here we can see changes in moral thinking.

    On the question of why would we most likely not place these criminal psychopaths/sociopaths in therapy units there are a few factors. I would say most likely once again because of public moralism the public wants to see punishment of those who have committed horrible acts, looking at it this way prison sentences helps keep the peace, imagine the public outrage without them.

    Second reason is the cost would probably be way to high to put all these people through therapy even non criminals find it hard to get the right help.

    Also to some these treatments, this whole field of science psychology is seen as a pseudo science. So at least in my view I would question how serious the progress of treatment was? Could it be proven that the patients have changed? I think its unlikely specially in adults who are stuck in their ways, does not mean there is no hope though in individual cases.

    How I know someone is aware is through discussion and questioning and comparing it to so called normal standards of behaviour and comparing the differences. Not a scientist myself so can't go to in depth, talking from what I have learnt in life through reading of criminal profiles and crime documentaries.

    So awareness to me is someone fully understanding what they say/do and situations they find themselves in. They need to be aware in order to hold full responsibility for any act.

    Also sometimes scientists may search for anomalies in the brain such as low serotonin levels as someone mentioned or even tumors. Some criminals try and dupe these therapists in claiming insanity but fail so it can't be faked unless of course you are somewhat educated in this field if science.

    It's not worrying that you know because the information is out there for all. You may also have experienced interactions or observed people who have psycho/sociopathic traits.
    First you would question, why does something so basic, so fundamental change?

    As for pedophiles, and I say this without judgement. It's just not sane.

    We know that most criminals, reoffend soon after being released, this is proof that something need to change there. There are costs for being incarcerated too you know, and considering what I said above, it must make you question.

    If you yourself don't know what the changes would be, then you have to question yourself. So your, and everyone else examining the patient, is a beacon of normality, with all the problems and day to day frustrations we all face.

    There are tests to prove someones sanity?

    What do you mean, are you saying that a socio/psychopath is going to pick up a self help book? If so, are most of them even aware first of all?
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    First you would question, why does something so basic, so fundamental change?

    As for pedophiles, and I say this without judgement. It's just not sane.

    We know that most criminals, reoffend soon after being released, this is proof that something need to change there. There are costs for being incarcerated too you know, and considering what I said above, it must make you question.

    If you yourself don't know what the changes would be, then you have to question yourself. So your, and everyone else examining the patient, is a beacon of normality, with all the problems and day to day frustrations we all face.

    There are tests to prove someones sanity?

    What do you mean, are you saying that a socio/psychopath is going to pick up a self help book? If so, are most of them even aware first of all?

    Not sure what you are referring to when you say something so basic so fundamental if you are referring to brain function it could be several factors they say killers with low serotonin levels it could be most likely down to how they were brought up, or perhaps they had a traumatic experience in childhood which changed their wiring.

    If you are instead referring to changes in public moral opinion I bring this down to education and changing culture also age-wise. I would guess most of the posters in that thread I referred to were young and naive to think they can somehow change the thought and behaviour of a peadophile through some sort of mental therapy.

    Yes there are certainly costs to incarceration, however, I would this solution would be more cost effective then paying psychotherapists again and again to treat these people so it looks like the government sees it as a cheaper option. Like I said earlier there is no proof this would work, many repeat offenders are not even psycho/sociopaths they are just poorly educated and can not function in the real world hence why they repeat offend.

    Once again you lost me a bit in this section ''If you yourself don't know what the changes would be, then you have to question yourself. So your, and everyone else examining the patient, is a beacon of normality, with all the problems and day to day frustrations we all face. ''

    Doctors and psychologists dealing with these people who suffer from psycho/socipathic may not have all the answers but they certainly have built up experience to try and understand individual cases. Also no one is the beacon of normality,however, it's safe to say we have not committed acts which have tipped the scale of normality. There is always a fair way of looking at things hence this moral codes of behaviour that we judge our standard of living by.

    Yes there are tests to prove sanity as I mentioned earlier before any criminal case especially if the defendant/culprit pleads insanity they will be made to go through several tests/assessments of sanity to see if they are in fit state to cope with a trial. As well as see tests to show how aware or unaware they were in the act of a crime. I am not sure the names of these tests,however,they certainly can assess how healthy of mind one is.

    Why can't they pick up a self health book if they want to? Not saying they will or even have to but just because someones a psycho/sociopath does not mean they are stupid, they can function just like any other person. In fact I don't think they even have to change unless they are aware that their condition affects the lives in certain ways and then of course they can either go through self diagnosis/self help or consult a professional in the field on the matter.
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    First you would question, why does something so basic, so fundamental change?

    As for pedophiles, and I say this without judgement. It's just not sane.

    We know that most criminals, reoffend soon after being released, this is proof that something need to change there. There are costs for being incarcerated too you know, and considering what I said above, it must make you question.

    If you yourself don't know what the changes would be, then you have to question yourself. So your, and everyone else examining the patient, is a beacon of normality, with all the problems and day to day frustrations we all face.

    There are tests to prove someones sanity?

    What do you mean, are you saying that a socio/psychopath is going to pick up a self help book? If so, are most of them even aware first of all?
    Just to add further I would have rather found a UK source,however an American source is still as good.Just for your further reading if you are interested after a quick Google search.

    Check the link below for further information on the subject at least from an American perspective.
    .
    http://psycholegalassessments.com/ar...f-the-offense/

    Below is the Wikipedia link which can be more in depth and discusses British law aswell as some other nations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense

    Rather just send you the links then copy and paste paragraphs.

    Edit: Looked further into the UK law and it's called fitness to plead, look at the link below for further information on how it is seen through the courts. If you click principle it will give you a summary on the law.

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/m...offenders/#a01
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Not sure what you are referring to when you say something so basic so fundamental if you are referring to brain function it could be several factors they say killers with low serotonin levels it could be most likely down to how they were brought up, or perhaps they had a traumatic experience in childhood which changed their wiring.

    If you are instead referring to changes in public moral opinion I bring this down to education and changing culture also age-wise. I would guess most of the posters in that thread I referred to were young and naive to think they can somehow change the thought and behaviour of a peadophile through some sort of mental therapy.

    Yes there are certainly costs to incarceration, however, I would this solution would be more cost effective then paying psychotherapists again and again to treat these people so it looks like the government sees it as a cheaper option. Like I said earlier there is no proof this would work, many repeat offenders are not even psycho/sociopaths they are just poorly educated and can not function in the real world hence why they repeat offend.

    Once again you lost me a bit in this section ''If you yourself don't know what the changes would be, then you have to question yourself. So your, and everyone else examining the patient, is a beacon of normality, with all the problems and day to day frustrations we all face. ''

    Doctors and psychologists dealing with these people who suffer from psycho/socipathic may not have all the answers but they certainly have built up experience to try and understand individual cases. Also no one is the beacon of normality,however, it's safe to say we have not committed acts which have tipped the scale of normality. There is always a fair way of looking at things hence this moral codes of behaviour that we judge our standard of living by.

    Yes there are tests to prove sanity as I mentioned earlier before any criminal case especially if the defendant/culprit pleads insanity they will be made to go through several tests/assessments of sanity to see if they are in fit state to cope with a trial. As well as see tests to show how aware or unaware they were in the act of a crime. I am not sure the names of these tests,however,they certainly can assess how healthy of mind one is.

    Why can't they pick up a self health book if they want to? Not saying they will or even have to but just because someones a psycho/sociopath does not mean they are stupid, they can function just like any other person. In fact I don't think they even have to change unless they are aware that their condition affects the lives in certain ways and then of course they can either go through self diagnosis/self help or consult a professional in the field on the matter.
    I was referring to the moral code you mentioned in your pervious post.

    In regards to the brain function, I would agree with you there.

    Why would you think it wouldn't "change the thought and behaviour of a peadophile through some sort of mental therapy"?

    So it more about saving your pennies, than rehabilitating offenders?? That doesn't seem quite right. Why do you think there is no proof? huh.. Yes, you're right, and you're highlighting a very serious issue.

    "many repeat offenders are not even psycho/sociopaths they are just poorly educated and can not function in the real world hence why they repeat offend."

    That was because you were questioning how could it even be proven offenders are psycho/sociopaths "Could it be proven that the patients have changed?" How can you know what the changes are, if you don't know what you're looking for.

    Maybe so, but, that is assuming every case is the same. As long as you haven't outwardly shown signs, you can gauge someone's sanity? How do you know these people aren't lying?

    I didn't say stupid, I questioned whether they were aware, as most people are not , particularly of psychological problems. When people with psychological disorders do realise and seek help, how can they relate to a book about there illness, I don't think it's as simple as you make it out.
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    I was referring to the moral code you mentioned in your pervious post.

    In regards to the brain function, I would agree with you there.

    Why would you think it wouldn't "change the thought and behaviour of a peadophile through some sort of mental therapy"?

    So it more about saving your pennies, than rehabilitating offenders?? That doesn't seem quite right. Why do you think there is no proof? huh.. Yes, you're right, and you're highlighting a very serious issue.

    "many repeat offenders are not even psycho/sociopaths they are just poorly educated and can not function in the real world hence why they repeat offend."

    That was because you were questioning how could it even be proven offenders are psycho/sociopaths "Could it be proven that the patients have changed?" How can you know what the changes are, if you don't know what you're looking for.

    Maybe so, but, that is assuming every case is the same. As long as you haven't outwardly shown signs, you can gauge someone's sanity? How do you know these people aren't lying?

    I didn't say stupid, I questioned whether they were aware, as most people are not , particularly of psychological problems. When people with psychological disorders do realise and seek help, how can they relate to a book about there illness, I don't think it's as simple as you make it out.
    I don't think there is any great proof one because I have never seen it, second the experience of just living tells me even changing small behaviour habits takes time and sometimes you repeat them. Just think about any of your own bad habits whether it's an eating habit, whatever behaviour which troubles you and even you know you have probably at times done it again, relapsed.

    So now can you truly believe that someone who has a really awful problem like pedophilia can change totally? Highly unlikely, they will just hide it better, I picture them like serial killers even if a serial killer does not kill in ten years he/she can and will still highly likely do it again.

    Is a government trying to save our tax pennies instead of treating these troubled people wrong to a degree sure. However, it could equally be wrong and a waste to plunder money on to these pseudo treatments.

    Any socio/psychopath who is not aware they are a bit different from others will eventually be aware that they have some problem. Whether it's cause they commit a crime or are bad at forming relationships they will likely question why. Or in the criminals case be told by therapists.

    Only issue is though that depending on the individual case of course some socio/psychopaths usually cannot feel no empathy for people, everything they do is an act even in simple interactions they cannot actually feel emotions and relate to another it's all a big mask. I would think it's a bit unlikely they would admit these thoughts to anyone.

    I think the non criminal socio/psychopath could go through the self help method, this is if they are aware of their problem. Even if they are not aware that what they are dealing with is socio/psychopathy and positive step to self understanding is still a good thing another step to realising what plagues them.

    You keep asking how can professionals be aware that they have changed. I can only guess they would put the through many treatment courses and assessments before they can label them changed it's unlikely anyway that they would be out in public.

    Even though they do let out a few notorious criminals the majority will most likely stay in prison and be seen by therapists yet never get released.

    I think it's all about mental strength a book can teach people coping methods but in the end as with anything it comes down to mental strength. If you are aware of a problem and truly want to change, the desire to change and belief that you can change is the main motivating force.

    We don't know if anyone is lying the professionals can pass the person off as changed and we as a society have to trust these authorities. You will only know if there has been a f**k up when it hits the news. Perhaps now you think prison is the better, safer option.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    I don't think there is any great proof one because I have never seen it, second the experience of just living tells me even changing small behaviour habits takes time and sometimes you repeat them. Just think about any of your own bad habits whether it's an eating habit, whatever behaviour which troubles you and even you know you have probably at times done it again, relapsed.

    So now can you truly believe that someone who has a really awful problem like pedophilia can change totally? Highly unlikely, they will just hide it better, I picture them like serial killers even if a serial killer does not kill in ten years he/she can and will still highly likely do it again.

    Is a government trying to save our tax pennies instead of treating these troubled people wrong to a degree sure. However, it could equally be wrong and a waste to plunder money on to these pseudo treatments.

    Any socio/psychopath who is not aware they are a bit different from others will eventually be aware that they have some problem. Whether it's cause they commit a crime or are bad at forming relationships they will likely question why. Or in the criminals case be told by therapists.

    Only issue is though that depending on the individual case of course some socio/psychopaths usually cannot feel no empathy for people, everything they do is an act even in simple interactions they cannot actually feel emotions and relate to another it's all a big mask. I would think it's a bit unlikely they would admit these thoughts to anyone.

    I think the non criminal socio/psychopath could go through the self help method, this is if they are aware of their problem. Even if they are not aware that what they are dealing with is socio/psychopathy and positive step to self understanding is still a good thing another step to realising what plagues them.

    You keep asking how can professionals be aware that they have changed. I can only guess they would put the through many treatment courses and assessments before they can label them changed it's unlikely anyway that they would be out in public.

    Even though they do let out a few notorious criminals the majority will most likely stay in prison and be seen by therapists yet never get released.

    I think it's all about mental strength a book can teach people coping methods but in the end as with anything it comes down to mental strength. If you are aware of a problem and truly want to change, the desire to change and belief that you can change is the main motivating force.

    We don't know if anyone is lying the professionals can pass the person off as changed and we as a society have to trust these authorities. You will only know if there has been a f**k up when it hits the news. Perhaps now you think prison is the better, safer option.
    Why don't you when you see these bad habit say to yourself "i noticed that, I'm not going to do it again".

    i see the cycle, but, that just means treatment didn't work, try something else.

    Why not.

    You're telling me anything I don't already know. Is there evidence of this working?

    "I think it's all about mental strength a book can teach people coping methods but in the end as with anything it comes down to mental strength."

    Haha, if they hit the news, that's not good, but, what you are saying sounds like putting a plaster on a broken leg, hoping for it to heal by tomorrow.
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    Why don't you when you see these bad habit say to yourself "i noticed that, I'm not going to do it again".

    i see the cycle, but, that just means treatment didn't work, try something else.

    Why not.

    You're telling me anything I don't already know. Is there evidence of this working?

    "I think it's all about mental strength a book can teach people coping methods but in the end as with anything it comes down to mental strength."

    Haha, if they hit the news, that's not good, but, what you are saying sounds like putting a plaster on a broken leg, hoping for it to heal by tomorrow.
    I am not claiming that for minor issues such as lets say food eating disorder you can not change your behaviour totally, you probably can,however, even along this journey of change just for this minor issue you will relapse a bit.

    So then if you magnify it to a big problem just imagine what damage that relapse would do. That was the point of what I was saying, most people would just give in to their same thought patterns at some point. Even if they tell themselves not to do it.

    Well you say treatments don't work,the only treatments psychologists and doctors seem to have these days for anything around behaviour change methods is discussions with patients about how to tackle such behaviour or they put them on drugs there is no 100% safe method to totally change someone who is dealing with a major mental issue.

    What exactly is your interest in all this anyway are you writing some sort of paper on this? This just some hobby of yours?

    No point asking me more questions on the matter, I have pretty much gone as in depth as I can without further reading and it's not a big deal to me because it's not something I have to deal with personally. Perhaps something is affecting you in life you wish to discuss, feel free to let me know.
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    People with no grip on reality but then you could say every Labour and Green politician was insane

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    (Original post by Mancini)
    I am not claiming that for minor issues such as lets say food eating disorder you can not change your behaviour totally, you probably can,however, even along this journey of change just for this minor issue you will relapse a bit.

    So then if you magnify it to a big problem just imagine what damage that relapse would do. That was the point of what I was saying, most people would just give in to their same thought patterns at some point. Even if they tell themselves not to do it.

    Well you say treatments don't work,the only treatments psychologists and doctors seem to have these days for anything around behaviour change methods is discussions with patients about how to tackle such behaviour or they put them on drugs there is no 100% safe method to totally change someone who is dealing with a major mental issue.

    What exactly is your interest in all this anyway are you writing some sort of paper on this? This just some hobby of yours?

    No point asking me more questions on the matter, I have pretty much gone as in depth as I can without further reading and it's not a big deal to me because it's not something I have to deal with personally. Perhaps something is affecting you in life you wish to discuss, feel free to let me know.
    There is only two methods in treating people, talks or drugs, ok.

    Treatment is only likely to work on "minor mental disorders"

    magnify the problem how?

    Causal interest. You just made some interesting points, really.
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    (Original post by NHM713)
    There is only two methods in treating people, talks or drugs, ok.

    Treatment is only likely to work on "minor mental disorders"

    magnify the problem how?

    Causal interest. You just made some interesting points, really.
    ''There is only two methods in treating people, talks or drugs, ok. ''

    Yes in the case of a mental disorder unless of course perhaps the person has a treatable physical difference in their brain like a tumor perhaps which is detected early.

    When I say magnify the problem perhaps I used the wrong wording, I mean look at any habits you have as I mentioned before lets say either an overeating habit or imagine you have OCD (Obsessive compulsive disorder) now these are both behaviours which you can change but even at points one may slip and repeat the behaviour again. Now when I say magnify I mean replicate this same change mechanisms you have developed in controlling this behaviours and think about it in your mind for a much bigger problem lets say domestic abuse. How likely is it that one can keep in control of them for long periods?

    For these bigger behaviour problems the margin for error is so much more intense and so much more dangerous. In my mind I just could not trust any so called therapy in trying to change these behaviours, they are just like small bandages on a big problem, treating symptoms but can never really cure it.

    Also yes on minor mental disorders that are not dangerous to the public I would say I could trust in the individual taking steps to change but for the dangerous ones I prefer they are in a secure unit with professionals until much better scientific proof is at hand.

    Good talking to you, all these ideas can be picked up if you have any interest in psychology. I had an interest in criminology to a degree, reading serial killer books, watching crime documentaries.

    There is a documentary perhaps you have heard of it, this documentary is not necessarily about insanity,however, it does touch upon the mental workings of well known criminals who some may deem insane. Its called 'Most evil' may give you a better insight into the subject.

    Link below to some info:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil

    Of course this focuses on the most dangerous criminal minds rather then minor issues,it will still give you some good information around the subject if you have not seen it yet.
 
 
 
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