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    (Original post by O133)
    An emphatic aye, with the exception of these binding votes on turning comprehensives into grammars - let's not forget that we can't just have grammar schools and some education planning will be required here rather than just letting random schools convert.
    There already is a system for turning grammars into comprehensives, and this has only happened once in the last 16 years so I wouldn't worry about it being a wide spread occurrence. There already is a provision in this bill that if an area has 25% grammar schools then the LEA can choose not to allow a vote, to stop there being too many grammar schools
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    (Original post by Andy98)
    But some students fail the entry exam due to the learning disabilities meaning they can't physically finish the test. Look at people like Stephen Hawking for example, some of our greatest minds are held back due to physical problems and the better schools not catering for them. Grammar schools often reject people with coordination problems because the test results say that these students aren't "smart enough", when the fact of the matter is that they were physically unable to complete the test - if the grammar schools had measures in place to allow these students a fair chance to complete the entry test and show what they are capable of, it would be progress.
    Grammar school aside, apart from extra time, a separate room if required, being able to leave the exam room at any time, typing exams, speaking the exams to have a member of staff write them up, and taking a break, all of which happen already under current arrangements and will happen with the grammar school tests, there is nothing more we can do apart from weighting the exam for people who have learning disabilities. Hence, your argument is not one against grammar schools but one against testing as a whole. You could apply your argument against GCSE's and A-levels. Life is, and always will be based on testing. Testing is the only practical way humankind has developed to construct a picture of the abilities of people. While it may not be perfect, there is no alternative.

    I thought constructional dyspraxia and oromotor dyspraxia affected writing, spatial relationship, and speech. All of which are needed for academic excellence.
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    (Original post by tyroncs)
    There already is a system for turning grammars into comprehensives, and this has only happened once in the last 16 years so I wouldn't worry about it being a wide spread occurrence. There already is a provision in this bill that if an area has 25% grammar schools then the LEA can choose not to allow a vote, to stop there being too many grammar schools
    It would be much easier to give control of the siting and number of grammar schools to the Department for Education.
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    (Original post by tyroncs)
    There already is a system for turning grammars into comprehensives, and this has only happened once in the last 16 years so I wouldn't worry about it being a wide spread occurrence. There already is a provision in this bill that if an area has 25% grammar schools then the LEA can choose not to allow a vote, to stop there being too many grammar schools
    Actually looking at the notes and tge bill it seems to say 75% and the vote goes ahead they just ignore it.
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    As someone who has gone to a grammar school and gained great benefit from the experience I would love to see more of them; however 3 c/d seem slightly strange to me. Surely the criteria for becoming a grammar school should be teaching standards rather than popularity. Correct me if I am misinterpreting it.
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    What effect will this have on our education voucher system.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Also a disproportionate amount of grammer schools are single sex
    Slightly ironic comment, but it is 'grammar' not 'grammer' :P

    On the single-sex issue, Sevenoaks Grammar School (the reason I wrote the bill) is a proposal to build a new grammar school in Kent. They want it to be co-educational and I suspect the majority of new grammar schools would want the same.
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    (Original post by tyroncs)
    Slightly ironic comment, but it is 'grammar' not 'grammer' :P

    On the single-sex issue, Sevenoaks Grammar School (the reason I wrote the bill) is a proposal to build a new grammar school in Kent. They want it to be co-educational and I suspect the majority of new grammar schools would want the same.
    Sorry, I'll blame auto-correct.

    i doubt that Sevenoaks is big enough to have a grammar school. Having been there it's more old people. But I do not share such faith.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Actually looking at the notes and tge bill it seems to say 75% and the vote goes ahead they just ignore it.
    I didn't submit the bill, I just wrote it and it seems it has been changed slightly since then. There should be an amendment detailing the changes I described, I'll look into it
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Sorry, I'll blame auto-correct.

    i doubt that Sevenoaks is big enough to have a grammar school. Having been there it's more old people. But I do not share such faith.
    Fun fact: my school is about ~120 kids over capacity. My school has at least that many who live in Sevenoaks. There is enough kids there to sustain a 1000+ pupil grammar school, at the moment they just have to travel to places like Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells to go to one.

    Based on that, it is logical that the Greens should support this bill, as it reduces the travelling time of many students. This reduces CO2 levels and therefore is helping to stop Global Warming. Every little helps
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Sorry, I'll blame auto-correct.

    i doubt that Sevenoaks is big enough to have a grammar school. Having been there it's more old people. But I do not share such faith.
    Sevenoaks and the surrounding area is pretty heavily populated and, although I've never made that particular journey, it's a fair way to Tunbridge Wells and the nearest grammars, especially considering the size of Sevenoaks.
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    (Original post by Andy98)
    I can understand the fact they're old buildings but logic says that they'd update the building at least.

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    In general Grammar Schools are good schools, so they get a lot less funding per head then most Comprehensives. This leads to older buildings without money to update them.

    Just to clarify, any regulations which apply to comprehensive schools in regards to the disabled also apply to Grammar Schools, so any issues with provision for the disabled should be made into a separate bill as it doesn't apply only to Grammars
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    (Original post by tyroncs)
    Fun fact: my school is about ~120 kids over capacity. My school has at least that many who live in Sevenoaks. There is enough kids there to sustain a 1000+ pupil grammar school, at the moment they just have to travel to places like Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells to go to one.

    Based on that, it is logical that the Greens should support this bill, as it reduces the travelling time of many students. This reduces CO2 levels and therefore is helping to stop Global Warming. Every little helps
    Ok, I didn't know and I thought severnoaks was all old people:lol:

    that at is poor logic, we also don't like eliteism which grammar schools make.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    that at is poor logic, we also don't like eliteism which grammar schools make.
    Though that elitism is at least based on ability, whereas the current system where only those who can afford it get the best education.

    I believe I'm right in saying that Kent's grammar schools outperform its private schools.
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    (Original post by O133)
    Though that elitism is at least based on ability, whereas the current system where only those who can afford it get the best education.

    I believe I'm right in saying that Kent's grammar schools outperform its private schools.
    Aye, and although I see the value on grammars I also see how mincing the gifted with the less smart helps all.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Ok, I didn't know and I thought severnoaks was all old people:lol:

    that at is poor logic, we also don't like eliteism which grammar schools make.
    The Global Warming bit was just a light-hearted joke :P

    Regardless of your personal opinion on Grammar Schools Elitism, this bill doesn't force the building of any new Grammar Schools. What it does is it allows local regions to decide for themselves whether or not they want one. I don't know the TSR Green's view on devolution but the real life party supports it I know, and this bill helps extend that.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Aye, and although I see the value on grammars I also see how mincing the gifted with the less smart helps all.
    Does it though? That depends on the quality of the teacher, and in any case most schools set pupils, which is essentially the same as a grammar/comprehensive split but in the same building. What it can cause is teaching to the lowest common denominator, which doesn't help anyone.
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    I must say i am surprised at how "well" this is going down.

    Very good bill tyroncs!
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    What effect will this have on our education voucher system.
    I am broadly in favour of a voucher system but prefer grammar schools. I did read over the TSR education bill and was surprised it passed. There are major flaws to it which cause the bill to achieve the complete opposite of what it was intended to do.

    In Germany, Sweden, Denmark, and the UK about 10% of the population attend a private school. in the UK the average fee is £11,000 whereas in Germany, Sweden, and Denmark the government voucher scheme reduces the average fee to £1000. The flaw comes in capping the price. To make my point easier, let us assume classroom hours per year is fixed, and when we speak of buying education we mean buying a higher quality of education and not more hours of education.

    Suppose currently the cost of state education was Pe of tax for 1 unit, which needs to be paid whether or not the family uses it, where the single unit is a year's worth of education at the current standard in comprehensive schools. The family has the option to send their child to a private school to purchase one or more units of education at a private school, also at the price Pe per unit. For example, buying 1.2 units of education at a private school would equal a education 20% better quality than the one offered at comprehensive schools. Families are legally required to provide one unit of education to their children.

    We can now derive a graph for education and other goods for a family who has a pretax income of Y. If there were no taxes or constraints the budget line would be ABD. But because each family pays Pe in school taxes, the vertical intercept is Y-Pe. Taking one free unit into account, the budget constraint is always horizontal to one unit and then slopes down as additional units are bought at an additional sum Pe.



    Now when we introduce a budget system, families still pay Pe but get a voucher worth Pe which is used towards education of any type. New new budget constraint is therefore A'BD. The voucher system doesn't eliminate discontinuity at B. However, are parents free to choose education above 1 unit? This is where the flaw is. it all depends on whether private schools are allowed to charge fees. In Sweden, where every school is private, they are not. In the Netherlands they can but the fees are capped which constrains the family to a point near B. The system in Sweden and the Netherlands does restrict choice on the quality of education. It's motivated on equality grounds but it is still a constraint.

    The idea of the voucher system is it increases competition between private and state schools, hopefully making schools more efficient in their production of educational services. This does work as Sweden and the Netherlands both rank higher then the UK in education. But the voucher system bill on TSR doesn't do this. TSR has unlimited fees on top of the voucher. Parents can continue to buy well in excess of one unit education without 'paying double'. The parents would choose to consume at point G. As a result, inequality would also increase.

    In Denmark and Germany the voucher system is only equivalent to 0.75Pe of the cost of a private school. Essentially it's worth Pe to the state schools but 0.75Pe to private schools. The difference is made by fees at the private schools. The fees, however, are still capped to maintain equality between the schools. That parents are willing to send their children to private schools under all kinds of voucher system highlight how state schools and private schools are not prefect substitutes. This is where my preference of grammar schools stems from.

    The voucher system will still remain but grammar schools will also start to grow in number.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Grammar school aside, apart from extra time, a separate room if required, being able to leave the exam room at any time, typing exams, speaking the exams to have a member of staff write them up, and taking a break, all of which happen already under current arrangements and will happen with the grammar school tests, there is nothing more we can do apart from weighting the exam for people who have learning disabilities. Hence, your argument is not one against grammar schools but one against testing as a whole. You could apply your argument against GCSE's and A-levels. Life is, and always will be based on testing. Testing is the only practical way humankind has developed to construct a picture of the abilities of people. While it may not be perfect, there is no alternative.

    I thought constructional dyspraxia and oromotor dyspraxia affected writing, spatial relationship, and speech. All of which are needed for academic excellence.
    With the current system grammar school entry tests have no arrangements in place. I am not arguing about testing, merely saying that the grammar school entry test should have the normal exam arrangements; which with the current system aren't happening. If these exam arrangements will be put in place with this new bill so be it.

    In my experience they are not. Some of the smartest people I know have dyspraxia. I'll admit my GCSEs were not excellent but they were above average, so with proper teaching who knows what I would've got (nothing against comprehensive schools, just the one I went to was dire). Just because people are physically impaired doesn't mean they are less intelligent.

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