Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
x Turn on thread page Beta
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Denying the holocaust happened isn't solidarity. Denying the holcaust happened gives oxygen to some rather unsavoury extremists on the right wing. Continental right wing extremists make our right wing extremists look like the WI.
    The right wing? What would you say is the political leaning of publications which have been accused of inviting Hamas stooges who have a history of antisemitic comments?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    The right wing? What would you say is the political leaning of publications which have been accused of inviting Hamas stooges who have a history of antisemitic comments?
    Within Europe, it's our right wing nutters that tend to gain from holcaust denial.

    Middle Eastern holcaust denial is just a game in which to:
    A) p*ss Israel off.
    B) antagonise the jewish community by strengthening the right wing.

    It's a big like not liking a girl you know who's been raped so to annoy her you come out with comments like rape is a woman's fault.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Within Europe, it's our right wing nutters that tend to gain from holcaust denial.

    Middle Eastern holcaust denial is just a game in which to:
    A) p*ss Israel off.
    B) antagonise the jewish community by strengthening the right wing.

    It's a big like not liking a girl you know who's been raped so to annoy her you come out with comments like rape is a woman's fault.
    Yes, but I think general antisemitism is no longer the preserve of the far-right.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Lady Comstock)
    Yes, but I think general antisemitism is no longer the preserve of the far-right.
    Your right. Anti semetism isn't erely a right wing issue, although it's the right wing nutters in Europe I worry about more.

    The fall out from ww2 resulted in facists being described as extreme right wing and any Semitic, although fascism in Italy didn't embrace the anti semetism that germany did.

    The far left has embraced anti semetism. Catholicism has embrace anti semetism.

    Anti semetism tends to be used when you need a scape goat.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    atleast it didnt say '**** jews'.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Denying the holocaust happened isn't solidarity. Denying the holcaust happened gives oxygen to some rather unsavoury extremists on the right wing. Continental right wing extremists make our right wing extremists look like the WI.
    you are conflating several different and separate topics as one.

    1) Denial of the Holocaust
    2) Anti-semitism
    3) People sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.

    Now one and two may be related in many cases, but one can still not believe in the Holocaust but not be anti-semitic. If one was to deny the Armenian genocide like many people do, they aren't doing son because they necessarily dislike Armenian's, they may be doing it because they consider that the facts available do not come to that conclusion. Granted the whereabouts of 6 million Jews and millions of gypsies, disabled people and Slavs is a bit more difficult to explain away, but denying the holocaust does not automatically mean that one is anti-semitic.

    Now to number 3. Just because someone is critical of Israel's policy in the occupied territories does not make them anti-semitic. It makes them a compassionate human. Just as one would grieve for a life when a Palestinian militant massacres a family in an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank, one also grieves for the loss of life when Israel destroys an entire neighbourhood with a resulting massive loss of life.

    The first action does not make one 'anti-Muslim' any more than grieving for the Charlie Hebdo victims or criticising the attackers does. Equally criticising the Israeli government for the wanton destruction it delivers to the palestinian people does not make one anti-semitic.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by castlemadeofsand)
    you are conflating several different and separate topics as one.

    1) Denial of the Holocaust
    2) Anti-semitism
    3) People sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.

    Now one and two may be related in many cases, but one can still not believe in the Holocaust but not be anti-semitic. If one was to deny the Armenian genocide like many people do, they aren't doing son because they necessarily dislike Armenian's, they may be doing it because they consider that the facts available do not come to that conclusion. Granted the whereabouts of 6 million Jews and millions of gypsies, disabled people and Slavs is a bit more difficult to explain away, but denying the holocaust does not automatically mean that one is anti-semitic.

    Now to number 3. Just because someone is critical of Israel's policy in the occupied territories does not make them anti-semitic. It makes them a compassionate human. Just as one would grieve for a life when a Palestinian militant massacres a family in an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank, one also grieves for the loss of life when Israel destroys an entire neighbourhood with a resulting massive loss of life.

    The first action does not make one 'anti-Muslim' any more than grieving for the Charlie Hebdo victims or criticising the attackers does. Equally criticising the Israeli government for the wanton destruction it delivers to the palestinian people does not make one anti-semitic.
    Sadly, these days the three of them are all getting merged together. And that's the problem. They should be seperate issues, but unceasingly we're seeing pro palestinian groups attempting to gain support from the anto semtics.

    Holcaust denial and anti semetism are linked in Europe. Holcaust denial is a code. A code that diminished the horrors of facism .
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by L i b)
    It's one of those things that I remain genuinely shocked by. That someone person can be so twisted as to take one of the greatest human tragedies of modern times and belittle it.

    There is rarely a low to which some nutter will not stoop.
    It's appalling to deface something in such an offensive manner. However, a cursory reading about it reveals major doubts about the view that there was mass killing using gas. For instance:

    • Adorno Mayer noted that most of the deaths most likely arose due to disease (typhus outbreaks were a major problem)

      Pathologist Dr Charles Larson performed hundreds of autopsies and never found any cases of death caused by poisoning or gas.,

      Zyklon gas was certainly used to combat the spread of typhus.

      British Intelligence reports on German communications (eg. JH Hinsey) confirmed various prisoner deaths, but there was never any reference to gassing.

      The Red Cross reports.

      The admissions that Auschwitz commander Hoess was tortured to extract a confession (Judge van Roden noted that torture of German witnesses was widespread)

      Various references to a six million figure from the 1890's onwards being at risk and for the need to establish a zionist state.


    Of course, whether deaths arose due to typhus, malnutrition shooting, or gassing is little comfort. But the way this has been put off limits to discussion and in some cases academics can go to prison for doing so, is Orwellian.

    Incidentally, is there likely to be a memorial day for the 16 or so million purged by Stalin, or the 30 million killed in the cultural revolution in China?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Sadly, these days the three of them are all getting merged together. And that's the problem. They should be seperate issues, but unceasingly we're seeing pro palestinian groups attempting to gain support from the anto semtics.

    Holcaust denial and anti semetism are linked in Europe. Holcaust denial is a code. A code that diminished the horrors of facism .
    I don't know - why would Paul Rassinier, a French resistance fighter, who helped smuggle Jews from German-occupied France into Switzerland. and was sent to concentration camps, want to diminish the horrors of facism? Rassinier wrote:

    "Then one day I realized that a false picture of the German camps had been created and that the problem of the concentration camps was a universal one, not just one that could be disposed of by placing it on the doorstep of the National Socialists. The deportees, many of whom were Communists, had been largely responsible for leading international political thinking to such an erroneous conclusion. I suddenly felt that by remaining silent I was an accomplice to a dangerous influence....

    "There never were any gas chambers, nor any exterminations by that method at Auschwitz-Birkenau."
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by james22)
    What makes the holocaust bad isn't so much the raw nubmers killed, but the whole idea of a industrialised extermination machine run by a developed country. The deaths in China were mostly indirect, due to famine. In Russia they were really just killing those who opposed them.
    For which Princeton jewish academic Adorno Mayer noted that evidence was rare to non-existent? Are you aware that Paul Rassinier, a french resistance fighter who helped smuggle jews from France into Switzerland, and was sent to. US Pathologist Dr Charles Larson autopsied hundred of bodies after the war finished 1945 and never found any cases of poisoning. concentration camps, subsequently wrote that gas was never used to kill people? British Intelligence intercepted German communications from 1942 onwards and also never picked up anything to suggest that. As US judge Van Roden wrote and the interrogators of Hoess admitted, torture was used to extract confessions. The deaths in camps were largely due to malnutrition, typhus outbreaks (for which zyklon was used to delouse inmates) and shootings.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Chi019)
    I don't know - why would Paul Rassinier, a French resistance fighter, who helped smuggle Jews from German-occupied France into Switzerland. and was sent to concentration camps, want to diminish the horrors of facism? Rassinier wrote:
    Paul Rassiner the father of holicaust denial.

    I have no idea why people deny the holocaust happened.

    Attention seeking?
    Support the holocaust and deny it to justify it?
    Pretend it Never happened due to their involvement (the French have been rewriting their history on that since the end of the war.)
    Went to one concentration camp and beloved all other were the same?
    Didn't bother researching?

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...nialbrief.html

    Care to explain why for every one person who's written a rebuttal about the holcaust Thera about 10,000 other historians that agree it happened.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Chi019)
    For which Princeton jewish academic Adorno Mayer noted that evidence was rare to non-existent? Are you aware that Paul Rassinier, a french resistance fighter who helped smuggle jews from France into Switzerland, and was sent to. US Pathologist Dr Charles Larson autopsied hundred of bodies after the war finished 1945 and never found any cases of poisoning. concentration camps, subsequently wrote that gas was never used to kill people? British Intelligence intercepted German communications from 1942 onwards and also never picked up anything to suggest that. As US judge Van Roden wrote and the interrogators of Hoess admitted, torture was used to extract confessions. The deaths in camps were largely due to malnutrition, typhus outbreaks (for which zyklon was used to delouse inmates) and shootings.
    The individual you've quoted wasn't a french resistance fighter and his claims of smuggling Jews aren't as supported as you might think.

    Sadly this political prisoner wrote of his own personal experiences in Buchenwald and assumed that all concentration camps were the same.

    There was no gas chambers at buchenwald, it was a labour camp.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Chi019)
    For which Princeton jewish academic Adorno Mayer noted that evidence was rare to non-existent? Are you aware that Paul Rassinier, a french resistance fighter who helped smuggle jews from France into Switzerland, and was sent to. US Pathologist Dr Charles Larson autopsied hundred of bodies after the war finished 1945 and never found any cases of poisoning. concentration camps, subsequently wrote that gas was never used to kill people? British Intelligence intercepted German communications from 1942 onwards and also never picked up anything to suggest that. As US judge Van Roden wrote and the interrogators of Hoess admitted, torture was used to extract confessions. The deaths in camps were largely due to malnutrition, typhus outbreaks (for which zyklon was used to delouse inmates) and shootings.
    You're back, are you? Ban finally lifted?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    The individual you've quoted wasn't a french resistance fighter and his claims of smuggling Jews aren't as supported as you might think.

    Sadly this political prisoner wrote of his own personal experiences in Buchenwald and assumed that all concentration camps were the same.

    There was no gas chambers at buchenwald, it was a labour camp.
    Rassinier wasn't involved in the French Resistance?

    The thing with Buchenwald and Dachau is that at the Nuremberg Tribunal wasn't it claimed gas chambers used to kill people in those camps? That version no longer seems to be accepted?

    It's these inconsistencies, along with the other things raised above, that I think create some reasonable doubts about the extent gas was used in the manner claimed. Of course I can't say with high confidence that it wasn't used either.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Seriously peace between everyone seems to be too much to ask for these days
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Chi019)
    Rassinier wasn't involved in the French Resistance?

    The thing with Buchenwald and Dachau is that at the Nuremberg Tribunal wasn't it claimed gas chambers used to kill people in those camps? That version no longer seems to be accepted?

    It's these inconsistencies, along with the other things raised above, that I think create some reasonable doubts about the extent gas was used in the manner claimed. Of course I can't say with high confidence that it wasn't used either.
    Buchenwald and dachas were labour camps. Not death camps.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacha...entration_camp

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buche...entration_camp

    You do understand that not all concentration camps had gas chambers don't you?

    You do realise that as well as gassing people to death, the nazis worked them to death, asphyxiated and shot people in their tens of thousands?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp

    So as you can see. Some concentration camps were labour camps. Some were pure extermination camps and some were a mixture of labour and extermination camps.

    An example of the latter is auschwitz. Auschwitz was a network of concentration camps.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausch...entration_camp

    It was auschwitz birkenau that was the extermination part of the complex.

    There were an awful lot of french people who over egged their involvement in restistance. Youre man wasn't a resistance fighter as you claimed. Interesting to note that the claim on Wikipedia about smuggling jews out isn't referenced.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    ...
    Truly not worth engaging with this guy -- He just wants to make it seem like the Holocaust never happened. Any conversation with him will be just an endless cycle. Thanks for making the effort, but just wanted to duly warn you!
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Viceroy)
    Truly not worth engaging with this guy -- He just wants to make it seem like the Holocaust never happened. Any conversation with him will be just an endless cycle. Thanks for making the effort, but just wanted to duly warn you!
    I'm very worried where these loons are coming from.

    I know iran has been pushing the holocaust denial line recently, but I cannot comprehend the native european and North American contingent who buy into this stuff.

    I know that europe has had issues throughout it's history with anti semetism, but I guess it shows how long it takes to kill off a belief system.

    How do they do it?

    Normal family background until one day father decides to tell son how the Jews are the root of all evil?

    Self radicalising on The Internet?

    A desire to be different?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I'm very worried where these loons are coming from.

    I know iran has been pushing the holocaust denial line recently, but I cannot comprehend the native european and North American contingent who buy into this stuff.

    I know that europe has had issues throughout it's history with anti semetism, but I guess it shows how long it takes to kill off a belief system.

    How do they do it?

    Normal family background until one day father decides to tell son how the Jews are the root of all evil?

    Self radicalising on The Internet?

    A desire to be different?
    I haven't the foggiest idea, to be perfectly honest, but the recent rise of anti-Semitism in Europe is really worrying me.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Viceroy)
    I haven't the foggiest idea, to be perfectly honest, but the recent rise of anti-Semitism in Europe is really worrying me.
    It's rise I think is from several factors.

    And in no particular order.

    Iran has been stoking the issue. Give a degre of legitimacy to it by supporting the belief and you strengthen your enemies enemy.

    Economic downturn. Got to blame somebody. Traditionally it's always been the Jews .( a bit like the traditional rivalry between the UK and France. Most people don't know why but it's difficult to kill of centuries of mistrust)

    The rise in social media. maybe we should acknowledge that about a quarter of people can be easily led with what's on the Internet withoutquestioning it.

    people associate banking with jews. The rise in hatred towards bankers has kicked off anti semetism.

    edit. The new keyboard warriors have to have a. Cause to get angry about. Some have picked up Palestine. Best way to show support is to attack who you believe is wrong.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: January 27, 2015
Poll
Do you like carrot cake?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.