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Why is their so much unfair cynicism toward Farage & UKIP voters? Watch

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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    There isn't one - yet. I never said there was. Labour, the Tories and Lib Dems have yet to publish their manifestos either. Nobody has got round to it yet.
    The problem is political parties do have their policies on their websites and attempt to make coherent policy statements in the media. UKIP flip-flop between completely contrary positions like a completely privatised NHS and a completely protected NHS depending on what the public mood seems to be, and who they're speaking to. Then a Ukipper points you to their "Policies for People" website for "clarity" and you get a 2,000-word unformatted list of bullet points, with for example just 90 words of drivel on huge areas of concern like housing. The other minor ascendant party, the Greens, have 4,000 words on housing (over twice as long as UKIP's entire policy programme), laid out programmatically and cross-referenced with their ~40 other policy areas.

    That is why UKIP are a joke. It's just populism, they'll say anything for a few seats where they can open another unlimited expense account while doing no work, like they did in Europe. It might be OK if they had decent political instincts, or were actually a non-establishment party - but no, everyone from their leader to their MPs and their funders are ex-Tories for whom even Cameron hasn't been economically right-wing enough.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    No, UKIP only became popular when they switched focus from the EU to immigration.

    Polls show nobody on the street cares much about the EU.

    Still, no, UKIP are not racist. But you don't have to be racist to be evil. UKIP are quite prepared to ruin everyone's life equally, whether you're white, black, brown or yellow. As long as you're poor you're fair game for UKIP's ultra-Thatcherite medicine.
    Immigration tends to be a concern in times of economic downturn. Especially if you're struggling to find work.

    But let's not forget that UKIPs immigration policy is no different to the EUs immigration policy for non EU nationals.

    Interestingly, ukip members see themselves as left of the conservatives.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The problem is political parties do have their policies on their websites and attempt to make coherent policy statements in the media. UKIP flip-flop between completely contrary positions like a completely privatised NHS and a completely protected NHS depending on what the public mood seems to be, and who they're speaking to. Then a Ukipper points you to their "Policies for People" website for "clarity" and you get a 2,000-word unformatted list of bullet points, with for example just 90 words of drivel on huge areas of concern like housing. The other minor ascendant party, the Greens, have 4,000 words on housing (over twice as long as UKIP's entire policy programme), laid out programmatically and cross-referenced with their ~40 other policy areas.

    That is why UKIP are a joke. It's just populism, they'll say anything for a few seats where they can open another unlimited expense account while doing no work, like they did in Europe. It might be OK if they had decent political instincts, or were actually a non-establishment party - but no, everyone from their leader to their MPs and their funders are ex-Tories for whom even Cameron hasn't been economically right-wing enough.
    UKIP are still disorganised in many areas and that is not to their credit. It will be interesting to see what goes in their manifesto - will make or break them.

    The Greens may write a lot of words but much of it is crazy nonsense.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    UKIP are still disorganised in many areas and that is not to their credit. It will be interesting to see what goes in their manifesto - will make or break them.

    The Greens may write a lot of words but much of it is crazy nonsense.
    Crazy nonsense like taking back control of our public services?

    It's funny how right-wingers yammer on and on about sovereignty while merrily handing over large parts of the state to private corporations who are even more undemocratic and unaccountable than the EU.

    The Greens also want a referendum on the EU, for the right reasons: it's too corporate and neo-liberal. What is UKIP's position on the TTIP?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Crazy nonsense like taking back control of our public services?

    It's funny how right-wingers yammer on and on about sovereignty while merrily handing over large parts of the state to private corporations who are even more undemocratic and unaccountable than the EU.

    The Greens also want a referendum on the EU, for the right reasons: it's too corporate and neo-liberal. What is UKIP's position on the TTIP?
    This is nonsense, privatisation allows for services to compete to create a better service. Can you honestly say private companies are better than government owned? Additionally, being libertarian-right means you believe in small government, entirely the opposite of what the EU is trying to create.
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    (Original post by Andinet)
    This is nonsense, privatisation allows for services to compete to create a better service. Can you honestly say private companies are better than government owned? Additionally, being libertarian-right means you believe in small government, entirely the opposite of what the EU is trying to create.
    Dogma, try harder next time.

    If I run with your point about privatisation for a second (fallacious and dogmatic though it is), most businessmen agree that the EU, by harmonising regulations and removing capital controls, has "created a better service" in the exact same way.

    Could you point out to me what it is about the EU that is actually socialist, or anti-libertarian? Because from where I'm standing it looks ultra-neo-liberal. Pretty sure it is much leaner than sovereign governments as well, especially considering it governs twenty-eight countries: even the smallest government is going to look pretty big in that situation.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    You do realise that the UK electorate were never asked about joining the EU?

    You do realise that a lot of people in the UK are unhappy about being in the EU?
    But they were asked about remaining in it and they voted 67.23% to remain in it and 32.77% to leave it.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Crazy nonsense like taking back control of our public services?

    It's funny how right-wingers yammer on and on about sovereignty while merrily handing over large parts of the state to private corporations who are even more undemocratic and unaccountable than the EU.

    The Greens also want a referendum on the EU, for the right reasons: it's too corporate and neo-liberal. What is UKIP's position on the TTIP?
    50mph maximum speed limits, 20mph on all residential roads, banning night flights, radically different treatment of men and women in the justice system, stating they want the female prison population reduced to near zero - if that's not crazy I don't know what is.

    UKIP also oppose TTIP.
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    (Original post by lerjj)
    Oh dear, I am soo sorry about that incorrect fact. Let me correct it with a straight quote from Wikipedia:

    Farage was educated at Dulwich College, a public school in south London.[17] On leaving school in 1982, he decided not to go to university, but to work in the City, trading commodities at the London Metal Exchange.[15] Initially, he joined the American commodity brokerage firm Drexel Burnham Lambert,[17] transferring to Credit Lyonnais Rouse in 1986.[17] He joined Refco in 1994, and Natexis Metals in 2003.

    So no, he's not a banker. He's an ex-commodities broker, his father is a stockbroker he went to Dulwich college. But the important thing is that he didn't go to Oxford (because he didn't go to University at all) and so he must be all right. He must be a man of the people, because whenever you see ordinary people, they're swilling around a half-drunk pint? Literally all the time? In every photograph? For God's sake, even drunk's don't do that!

    He's a hypocrite who is abusing the electorate into voting for him: vote Dulwich not Eton! Vote commodities broker not Banker! Vote for the guy who's never been elected, because he says he's like you, even when he patently isn't! (and you'd be s**t at running he country anyway!)
    News-flash news-flash News-flash news-flash News-flash news-flash

    Many go to public school/Oxford, work in the city and don't look down at people!

    You do realise pretty much the whole Labour front-bench went to Oxbridge too?
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But they were asked about remaining in it and they voted 67.23% to remain in it and 32.77% to leave it.
    No, that was the EEC, which was mostly just a free trade zone with far fewer members.

    There have been no referenda on the numerous changes and incursions onto sovereignty that have taken place since.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    50mph maximum speed limits, 20mph on all residential roads, banning night flights, radically different treatment of men and women in the justice system, stating they want the female prison population reduced to near zero - if that's not crazy I don't know what is.
    That is crazy, but it's mere frippery compared to the big issues like, you know, our entire economic system. (Something UKIP won't be drawn on, as all they have to offer economically is an even more extreme version of what we've been suffering under for the past 40 years.)

    I couldn't give two hoots about the fevered fantasies of Green tree-huggers, especially when (like UKIP) these ancillary, core-vote-pleasing policies stand no chance of getting anywhere near the statute books. I hardly think the Greens are going to martyr themselves over a 20mph speed limit.

    All I care about is that our economic system be made fairer on those that work to create the value in it, and the Greens are the only party in England who stand any chance of influencing things in that direction, just as UKIP, with the help of the right-wing media, have influenced things towards blaming all our ills on Europe and immgration. (Ironically, this is the economic system UKIP's main voter demographic, old working-class people, actually hanker for.)

    UKIP have not done nearly enough to convince me that their single issues, Europe and immigration, are more of a threat than corporatocracy, that's what it all comes down to.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Shall we pretend eastern European immigrants aren't net contributors?
    Answer this:

    Why don't you only admit high-skilled immigrants and the net contribution would be even greater? What were 30 Romanians sleeping on park benches in Hyde Park contributing to this country?
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    News-flash news-flash News-flash news-flash News-flash news-flash

    Many go to public school/Oxford, work in the city and don't look down at people!

    You do realise pretty much the whole Labour front-bench went to Oxbridge too?
    Yes, it's an indictment of our politics that the closest any leader has had to a real job and a normal upbringing is prestigious private school alumnus and stockbroker-son-of-a-stockbroker Farage.

    Even the Greens went to Oxbridge.

    But it's not exactly setting the bar very high, is it? Farage has contempt for the lower orders in spades, you see it in his Thatcherite economics.

    The only political leaders in the UK with anything approaching a middle-class upbringing, and who have done a job for a living, are, wait for it ...

    Salmond and Sturgeon.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    No, that was the EEC, which was mostly just a free trade zone with far fewer members.
    There were 9 members at the time. What difference does the size make?

    It is the same institution and our relationship to it is still governed by the European Communities Act 1972.

    There have been no referenda on the numerous changes and incursions onto sovereignty that have taken place since.
    And why should there have been?
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    Not sure it can be called "unfair cynicism" when they're a party that claims to be different from the establishment when its a party primarily composed of failed, disgraced or just former Tory party members.
    Has numerous members that have made offensive public statements on record, and when called out on this say we should criticise their policies not their members which is a) stupid as policies will be enacted by their members and b) impossible because they've thrown out their last manifesto (which was full of daft policies anyway).
    This would engender a lot of cynicism from most people.
    And for all the people say its because "the left" call them names or shout the loudest, opposing UKIP doesn't make you left wing.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Answer this:

    Why don't you only admit high-skilled immigrants and the net contribution would be even greater? What were 30 Romanians sleeping on park benches in Hyde Park contributing to this country?
    The net contribution means they're not making Great Britain any less great. Sacrificing them at the alter of marginally higher tax revenues is not very internationalist. Nor would it solve the UK's economic problems. Stop blaming the homeless (both British born and not) start blaming the greed that screwed up the world banking system in 2008. UKIP have nothing to offer except xenophobia and the politics of fear.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But they were asked about remaining in it and they voted 67.23% to remain in it and 32.77% to leave it.
    Has their been a referendum I'm not aware of?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    The net contribution means they're not making Great Britain any less great. Sacrificing them at the alter of marginally higher tax revenues is not very internationalist. Nor would it solve the UK's economic problems. Stop blaming the homeless (both British born and not) start blaming the greed that screwed up the world banking system in 2008. UKIP have nothing to offer except xenophobia and the politics of fear.
    You didn't really answer my point. Lets say there's 1 million immigrants:

    -10 collectively contribute £10 billion
    -999,990 collectively cost us £9 billion

    So "immigration" net contribution is +£1 billion. However, with only the high-skilled the net contribution is £10 billion.

    So again, I ask- why admit people who contribute nothing to this country when we could ONLY admit those who would contribute?
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    You didn't really answer my point. Lets say there's 1 million immigrants:

    -10 collectively contribute £10 billion
    -999,990 collectively cost us £9 billion

    So "immigration" net contribution is +£1 billion. However, with only the high-skilled the net contribution is £10 billion.

    So again, I ask- why admit people who contribute nothing to this country when we could ONLY admit those who would contribute?
    Ridiculous hypothetical figures aside, do you support the deportation of Brits who 'contribute nothing'?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Yes, it's an indictment of our politics that the closest any leader has had to a real job and a normal upbringing is prestigious private school alumnus and stockbroker-son-of-a-stockbroker Farage.

    Even the Greens went to Oxbridge.

    But it's not exactly setting the bar very high, is it? Farage has contempt for the lower orders in spades, you see it in his Thatcherite economics.

    The only political leaders in the UK with anything approaching a middle-class upbringing, and who have done a job for a living, are, wait for it ...

    Salmond and Sturgeon.
    Let me guess, not spraying the workshy with £20k a year in benefits is suddenly "contempt"?
 
 
 
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