I'm in mid 20s, did arts degree became a teacher, don't like it, what else can I do? Watch

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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Once I graduated I realized that pursuing Law is much too expensive even if I saved a lot of my wages. The odds of getting pupillage didn't look great either and Law firms take A-Levels into account and mine, although they got me into an RG uni, weren't competitive enough and neither was my uni name (i.e it wasn't Oxbridge/Imperial etc). I think if someone really wants to do PG Law they either need a rich family and connections OR they need top standard grades (AAA or A*A*A*) and a top ten uni plus money from somewhere.
It doesn't cost you anything. Your firm pays for your qualification which is one extra year if you're a LLB graduate and two extra years if you're a non-Law graduate. You then start your contract once qualified. I appreciate you have given your own personal reasons for not pursing law and they make complete sense but it's therefore completely wrong and very dangerous to be advising people not to study philosophy based only on your own experience which won't be comparable to theirs. This comment in particular is ridiculous:

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
if you're looking for a 'permanent job' in anything other than teaching, with a Philosophy degree (and most other Arts degrees) you're going to be bitterly disappointed.
That is not true at all. Your degree subject plays a tiny part in your job application, it's not even close to the importance you are placing on it. As a PPE graduate, I have friends in a variety of arts fields and I know BA Philosophy and BA Politics graduates at Clifford Chance, Bond Dickinson, PwC, S&W and Accenture. They would simply laugh at that comment. Experience, soft skills, networking, research/knowledge, determination, and intelligence are important, not what modules you studied at university which will never be used again once your firm specifically trains and qualifies you for their field.

From what you've said in this thread, it sounds to me like you never had a specific career plan and didn't know what you wanted to do until later on (same as me). That doesn't mean it's the fault of philosophy - if you had studied economics or law or maths you still wouldn't be a physiotherapist. You are pursing a scientific career and disregarding philosophy as useless for permanent jobs outside of teaching, which makes no sense. The reason philosophy and the arts are useless for you is because you want to go into the health profession! Of course it's of no use. That's like someone blaming their background in basketball as the reason why they aren't a professional football player and then advising everyone that basketball is useless if you want to be a professional sportsperson.
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(Original post by thisistheend)
I should have done a first degree that gave me a hard skill. A hard skill is one where you'd still be employed for it even if people dislike you solely on account of the qualification.

Despite hating almost every second of PGCE and vowing never to teach full time, i scrape a living off supply teaching because i have a piece of paper that says I'm Qualified.

It wasn't my fault at uni that I didn't do all the things to get onto a graduate scheme. I tried to do the sort of employable things early on in my first year like joining a student society called AIESEC as I was studying Economics at the time. I just became too depressed at uni 6 months after and withdrew from the world. I got a job as a charity fundraiser and was promptly fired for being 6x as bad at closing a sale as the next worst person. So my PT jobs after that were to be seen and not heard, or not to be seen at all, easy when you work in a ****ty restaurant.
No what you should have done is studied and pursued your strongest interests both at the time and for a future career. No degree subject will guarantee a job - it takes a lot of effort and research and determination to get on a graduate scheme and they are three requirements that the average, 2.1 student will not meet, i.e. around 90% of students. A lot of students seem to believe that because they worked hard in a minimum wage part-time job at university and got their 2.1 that they now deserve a lucrative graduate job. It doesn't work like that. If you want to be working for a top firm then you have to go above and beyond compared to other students and to do that you need to be proactive early on and go to any length required.

It sounds to me like you don't really know what to do in life - and that's fair enough - but your employment situation has nothing to do with your degree subject and everything to do with this fact.
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(Original post by macromicro)
No what you should have done is studied and pursued your strongest interests both at the time and for a future career. No degree subject will guarantee a job - it takes a lot of effort and research and determination to get on a graduate scheme and they are three requirements that the average, 2.1 student will not meet, i.e. around 90% of students. A lot of students seem to believe that because they worked hard in a minimum wage part-time job at university and got their 2.1 that they now deserve a lucrative graduate job. It doesn't work like that. If you want to be working for a top firm then you have to go above and beyond compared to other students and to do that you need to be proactive early on and go to any length required.

It sounds to me like you don't really know what to do in life - and that's fair enough - but your employment situation has nothing to do with your degree subject and everything to do with this fact.
well it does have something to do with degree. i am employed as a supply teacher because I did a PGCE. no such straightward option for a Philosophy degree. You don't even have to apply for a job as a supply teacher, you just sign up and wait for work by the phone.

i've only done 3 job interviews in my life and failed them all. "overqualified" for Greggs, failed Teach First assessment day for poor soft skills and failed a British Council teaching assistant abroad for honesty (justifying my top choice over runner up on account of pay).

I'm not really sure how to get a job where you're not offered work or get paid for things cash in hand. I'm trying to start a business, but informally if you know what I mean (it's not Breaking Bad, I don't do that ****)
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(Original post by macromicro)
No degree subject will guarantee a job - .
Medicine

Engineering



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(Original post by macromicro)
No what you should have done is studied and pursued your strongest interests both at the time and for a future career. No degree subject will guarantee a job - it takes a lot of effort and research and determination to get on a graduate scheme and they are three requirements that the average, 2.1 student will not meet, i.e. around 90% of students. A lot of students seem to believe that because they worked hard in a minimum wage part-time job at university and got their 2.1 that they now deserve a lucrative graduate job. It doesn't work like that. If you want to be working for a top firm then you have to go above and beyond compared to other students and to do that you need to be proactive early on and go to any length required.

It sounds to me like you don't really know what to do in life - and that's fair enough - but your employment situation has nothing to do with your degree subject and everything to do with this fact.

Read my posts properly, don't talk to me as if I don't know those things already - I'm not ****ing stupid.

Regarding the first part - you have no idea about the circumstances in my life when I was 18 - do not tell me what I 'should have' done. Regardless of what I write on here, I have no regrets about what I did. Walk a mile in my shoes etc.

Regarding your last part - you're wrong.
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(Original post by AsandaLFC)
Medicine

Engineering
Neither guarantee a job.

Even if they did, you cannot force yourself to want to be a doctor or an engineer. You need a strong interest to study and pursue the career. It's not a convincing reason to choose a subject otherwise.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)

you have no idea about the circumstances in my life when I was 18 - do not tell me what I 'should have' done. .
That you rushed to uni to study a crap degree ? Thats your fualt. You are paying now.


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(Original post by thisistheend)
well it does have something to do with degree. i am employed as a supply teacher because I did a PGCE. no such straightward option for a Philosophy degree. You don't even have to apply for a job as a supply teacher, you just sign up and wait for work by the phone.
You can do a PGCE in any subject - it's not specific to philosophy.

(Original post by thisistheend)
i've only done 3 job interviews in my life and failed them all. "overqualified" for Greggs, failed Teach First assessment day for poor soft skills and failed a British Council teaching assistant abroad for honesty (justifying my top choice over runner up on account of pay).

I'm not really sure how to get a job where you're not offered work or get paid for things cash in hand. I'm trying to start a business, but informally if you know what I mean (it's not Breaking Bad, I don't do that ****)
Exactly, you lack the soft skills required to pass interviews or you lack interest in the jobs you're applying to. This has nothing to do with your degree subject - you need to figure out what you want from life. Easier said than done I know, but that's the reason for your "failure" not philosophy.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Read my posts properly, don't talk to me as if I don't know those things already - I'm not ****ing stupid.

Regarding the first part - you have no idea about the circumstances in my life when I was 18 - do not tell me what I 'should have' done. Regardless of what I write on here, I have no regrets about what I did. Walk a mile in my shoes etc.

Regarding your last part - you're wrong.
You do realise you've quoted a post that had nothing to do with you, right? That was a reply for thisistheend.
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(Original post by macromicro)
It doesn't cost you anything. Your firm pays for your qualification which is one extra year if you're a LLB graduate and two extra years if you're a non-Law graduate. You then start your contract once qualified. I appreciate you have given your own personal reasons for not pursing law and they make complete sense but it's therefore completely wrong and very dangerous to be advising people not to study philosophy based only on your own experience which won't be comparable to theirs.
Assuming person X is at a firm in the first place.

If I don't advise people based on my experience, what do you suggest I base it on? That's the whole reason I responded to this thread - my experience (and many other graduates). Also, if you read properly, you'll see that I say multiple time that people can take or leave what I say - it really makes no difference whatsoever to my life. I don't proclaim what I write to be gospel - it's my experience and I'm putting it out there so people can make their own judgment. I'm saying it so that people consider their degree carefully. If no one like me ever spoke about this reality, how would anyone ever know? I'm not going to sit there and ignore threads/posts relating to this issue just because there's another side of the coin - other people can fill that gap and write about how they have such a wonderful graduate job after studying Philosophy (haven't seen that thread yet). But this is my truth and I won't keep quiet just to please pedants like you because I personally think people should be aware of the other side.



(Original post by macromicro)
That is not true at all. Your degree subject plays a tiny part in your job application, it's not even close to the importance you are placing on it. As a PPE graduate, I have friends in a variety of arts fields and I know BA Philosophy and BA Politics graduates at Clifford Chance, Bond Dickinson, PwC, S&W and Accenture. They would simply laugh at that comment.
I'm sure they would laugh. PPE...so you went to Oxbridge or a top 10, then? And your mates would laugh that other grads from the Humanities/Arts at other unis who can't find work? Doesn't surprise me at all.

Did you start your degree when you were 18? Because not a single 18 year old at my comprehensive school would have had a clue what PPE meant other than 'Personal Protective Equipment'.


(Original post by macromicro)
Experience, soft skills, networking, research/knowledge, determination, and intelligence are important, not what modules you studied at university which will never be used again once your firm specifically trains and qualifies you for their field.
Why are you saying this to me as if I'm unaware?

(Original post by macromicro)
From what you've said in this thread, it sounds to me like you never had a specific career plan and didn't know what you wanted to do until later on (same as me). That doesn't mean it's the fault of philosophy - if you had studied economics or law or maths you still wouldn't be a physiotherapist.
Read the thread. I have nothing against Philosophy. We're talking about degrees courses, not subjects.
And of course I wouldn't be a Physiotherapist by taking a Maths degree - again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assume I had a single digit IQ quotient.
Do you think I applied to Philosophy as an 18 year old thinking, ''can't wait till' I graduate and start my job as a Physiotherapist!''. I've come to that career choice SINCE.

(Original post by macromicro)
You are pursing a scientific career and disregarding philosophy as useless for permanent jobs outside of teaching, which makes no sense.
Oh really!! The past 3 years must have been a ****ing hallucination then.

(Original post by macromicro)
The reason philosophy and the arts are useless for you is because you want to go into the health profession!
Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've chosen an NHS career after 3 YEARS of getting NOWHERE with a Philsoophy degree. Read. The. Thread.

(Original post by macromicro)
Of course it's of no use. That's like someone blaming their background in basketball as the reason why they aren't a professional football player and then advising everyone that basketball is useless if you want to be a professional sportsperson.
You think you are intelligent with your analogies, but you are idiotic because you have no idea about my life or WHY I chose a Philosophy degree and why I've now chosen an NHS career.

I would usually reply more formally and in more detail but I've had enough of clueless idiots like you misinterpreting what I say, not reading properly and filling in your gaps between I've said.
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somethingbeautiful
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(Original post by AsandaLFC)
That you rushed to uni to study a crap degree ? Thats your fualt. You are paying now.


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Where do you get off on judging me?
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somethingbeautiful
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(Original post by macromicro)
You do realise you've quoted a post that had nothing to do with you, right? That was a reply for thisistheend.
You're still a judgemental prick regardless of who you aimed that at.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Assuming person X is at a firm in the first place.
What? You apply for a training contract while at university. It begins one year after graduation if you are an LLB student or two years after graduation if you are a non-law student. That's the whole point of a training contract - they pay for your conversion and/or LPC and then train you.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
If I don't advise people based on my experience, what do you suggest I base it on? That's the whole reason I responded to this thread - my experience (and many other graduates). Also, if you read properly, you'll see that I say multiple time that people can take or leave what I say - it really makes no difference whatsoever to my life. I don't proclaim what I write to be gospel - it's my experience and I'm putting it out there so people can make their own judgment. I'm saying it so that people consider their degree carefully. If no one like me ever spoke about this reality, how would anyone ever know? I'm not going to sit there and ignore threads/posts relating to this issue just because there's another side of the coin - other people can fill that gap and write about how they have such a wonderful graduate job after studying Philosophy (haven't seen that thread yet). But this is my truth and I won't keep quiet just to please pedants like you because I personally think people should be aware of the other side.
My point is that your experience is not applicable to others and not valid to make unfounded generalisations about philosophy degrees. You want to become a physiotherapist and you studied philosophy - yes, obviously philosophy was not beneficial for you. If you had known earlier that you wanted to be a physiotherapist, I'm guessing you wouldn't have applied for philosophy... or economics or law or astrophysics. It's morally and logically wrong to try and convince people that philosophy cannot result in a permanent job bar teaching when it is based on a) anecdotal evidence and b) anecdotal evidence that is about as far from the average philosophy student as you can get (I'm guessing there aren't many other philosophy graduates who wished they studied physiotherapy). If top graduate employers are directly saying they don't care about degree subject then how can anyone take your posts in this thread seriously?

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I'm sure they would laugh. PPE...so you went to Oxbridge or a top 10, then? And your mates would laugh that other grads from the humanities Arts can't find work? Doesn't surprise me at all.
University prestige has even less impact on job applications than degree subject, except for perhaps front office IB. I didn't go to a top 10, just a standard RG.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Did you start your degree when you were 18? Because not a single 18 year old at my comprehensive school would have had a clue what PPE meant other than 'Personal Protective Equipment'.
This is irrelevant to be honest. I enjoyed philosophy and politics, researched those degrees and came across PPE. It's not exactly esoteric knowledge!

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Why are you saying this to me as if I'm unaware?
Because you are unaware, otherwise you wouldn't have said that philosophy graduates have no hope outside of teaching.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Read the thread. I have nothing against Philosophy. We're talking about degrees courses, not subjects.
I have read it carefully. You have mistaken your lack of drive for a certain career as the fault of the arts/philosophy. If you had been proactive at university, acquired a Spring internship, attended insights, experienced a Summer internship, researched a particular career meticulously and endlessly, practised psychometric tests and interview questions, etc. etc. then you would have got a graduate job. The reason you didn't has nothing to do with your subject. It's because you didn't know what you wanted to do after graduation and that's completely fine and understandable - what isn't fine is blaming it on the subject and then trying to scare off future philosophy students.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
And of course I wouldn't be a Physiotherapist by taking a Maths degree - again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't assume I had a single digit IQ quotient.
Do you think I applied to Philosophy as an 18 year old thinking, ''can't wait till' I graduate and start my job as a Physiotherapist!''. I've come to that career choice SINCE.
That's my point... it has nothing to do with philosophy and everything to do with you not knowing what career to pursue. You'd be in this situation if you had studied any degree not applicable to physiotherapy.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've chosen an NHS career after 3 YEARS of getting NOWHERE with a Philsoophy degree. Read. The. Thread.
You were going nowhere because you weren't driving yourself anywhere. It has nothing to do with your degree subject. Do you think if you had an economics degree, for example, your inbox would suddenly be flooded with job offers? You didn't know what career you wanted so of course you went nowhere. Those who go somewhere with a philosophy degree - or any degree for that matter - spent their 3 years at university actively pursuing that particular industry/firm. Don't you see that you went nowhere because of yourself and not because of your subject?

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
You think you are intelligent with your analogies, but you are idiotic because you have no idea about my life or WHY I chose a Philosophy degree and why I've now chosen an NHS career.

I would usually reply more formally and in more detail but I've had enough of clueless idiots like you misinterpreting what I say, not reading properly and filling in your gaps between I've said.
You keep saying I haven't read your posts. I've read them carefully and I also haven't sworn or used ad hominem attacks. I don't think I am intelligent, I know I am intelligent because I've worked very hard at becoming intelligent. That's not arrogance, it's my acknowledging the fruits of my labour. It's the same reason why I succeeded in getting an internship and graduate job at top firms - I didn't blame failures on anyone else but myself and I was relentlessly proactive and determined. I'm sure you're a nice and intelligent person also, but I also think you're trying to mistakenly blame the arts. The arts are irrelevant to your situation - you are here because you were unsure of what you wanted from life and people need to start openly accepting this and realising it's okay not to know - some people know from childhood, others take time to find their path in life. But as soon as you realise what you want, you go for it and that's how you succeed. It's that "going for it" which you didn't have at university and thus why you didn't get a gradate job, not philosophy or the arts.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
You're still a judgemental prick regardless of who you aimed that at.
I have said nothing unfair or judgemental and certainly have not acted as deserving the title "prick", though your insistence on verbal attacks is very telling of your character. I made a fair analysis of the OP which he did not disagree with - it's very obvious he doesn't know what he wants from life career-wise (clue's in the thread title!) and stating this doesn't make me a "judgemental prick". I was simply drawing his attention to the fact that his not knowing which career path to choose is the reason for his current situation, not philosophy, and this is the same reason for your situation also.
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(Original post by macromicro)
I have said nothing unfair or judgemental and certainly have not acted as deserving the title "prick", though your insistence on verbal attacks is very telling of your character. I made a fair analysis of the OP which he did not disagree with - it's very obvious he doesn't know what he wants from life career-wise (clue's in the thread title!) and stating this doesn't make me a "judgemental prick". I was simply drawing his attention to the fact that his not knowing which career path to choose is the reason for his current situation, not philosophy, and this is the same reason for your situation also.
In response to this bold part in particular and in response to your previous post:

You know what is telling of my character? Putting up with people like you for the past 3 years. You have no idea what I've experienced. You have no idea what work experience I have completed during university or since yet you insinuated that I didn't do any. You have no idea of my personal circumstances, before, during and after university. You have no idea my reasons for my first degree choice and you have no idea for the reasons behind my second degree choice yet you write as though I made the wrong choices when in fact they were the best choices I could have made in those circumstances.

What is telling of my character is that for the past 3 years I've managed to remain calm, civil and polite to people who felt the need to tell me who I am and what choices I should have made when they have no idea what I've experienced and been through during the past 6 years.

What is telling of my character is the fact that I'm even entertaining this discussion with you when you have no idea what I've gone through and you'll likely never (fortunately) have to experience it for yourself. What's telling of my character is that I've kept on trying and that I've never given up. What's telling of my character is that I posted on here to warn other students to carefully consider their degree choice and to take heed of the stories of graduates like me. You were the straw that broke the camel's back concerning my ability to continue to be patient, calm and polite when responding to people's comments about my life. Do you know why? Because I've heard it all before in various guises for 3 whole years whilst I've been working tirelessly to progress. You only know that I did a Philosophy degree, didn't get a grad job and am now pursuing an NHS career. What you do not know is any of the circumstances surrounding any of my decisions. Everything looks so easy to criticize on paper, but real lives are not as simple as black and white.

What's telling of my character is that I don't want other young people to go through the horrendous stomach dropping experience of sitting in a job center being told they'll have to take 'any work' and ending up doing manual labour on a zero hour contract which works out as less than the minimum wage by the end of the month and they can't support themselves anymore. They can't even eat when they get home because their job is so physically draining that they don't have the energy to even stay awake and when they do wake up it's time for another 9 hour shift lifting their own body weight in the freezing cold with a 30 minute break. What's telling of my character is that I kept turning up to work and didn't rely on benefits. What's telling of my character is that I when I had a day off I did voluntary work in my chosen sector. What's telling of my character is that I worked for free in my chosen sector. What's telling of my character is that I've made friends from all walks of life and that I never judge people based on their job because I've come to realize that humans have a great depth if you scratch the surface and you can learn so much from the most unassuming people.

You assume that I had no 'drive' and no plan during/after my degree. You could not be more wrong. You seem to base your whole judgement of me and my situation around the idea that I had no clue what I was doing. No. I had particular ambitions and I had work experience in my fields of interest. I know it's easy, as I've said in a previous post to say ''it's your fault'', but I refute that accusation. I did everything I could and it didn't work for me. Statistically, this happens. You don't know me, my life, the reasons for my choices and you certainly don't know my character.

I think you're a prick for passing such judgement on a human being whose life you have little knowledge of, whose experiences you'll never know and whose efforts you have no idea of. I could have been more civil and said something along the lines of 'you are ignorant of my life/choices/efforts' etc but I'm tired of dealing with people like you who jump to conclusions based on very little information. My situation is not my 'fault' and that's precisely why I posted on here to warn others because I was and am a very hardworking individual, with a good academic record and with work experience. People think it won't happen to them but it can and does and to then blame it on the individual is just rubbing salt in the wound because, as I've said, you have no idea of my efforts/ambitions during and after my degree. However, despite this, you are intent on blaming me without knowing anything about my life, choices, ambitions or experience and you, quiet conveniently, don't address any of the issues regarding graduate underemployment/unemployment - this is happening to a lot of people but you seem blinkered and intent on blaming individuals for a lack of 'drive'.

You have no idea and I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong you are about my case and since you're so sure about me without even knowing my story, having spoken to me personally or having met me, you are in no position to tell me about what mistakes I've made or how bad my decisions allegedly were. You definitely have no idea of what my whole character must be based on me calling you a prick, which personally, I think is one of the least offensive things I could have directed at you considering how wrong you are about me, my life and my choices. You are wrong to think you can pass judgement on me without knowing a thing about me and as I say - you're not the first and I've completely lost my patience for people such as you at this point.

If you'd experienced what I've experienced and someone like you said what you've said to me, I think 'prick' is probably one of the nicest things you could think of them. You have no idea and I do not expect you have an ounce of understanding because until you've been through what I have you won't come close to understanding how I feel and you won't understand why I feel so strongly about educating people to be very careful about what degree they choose.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
In response to this bold part in particular and in response to your previous post:

You know what is telling of my character? Putting up with people like you for the past 3 years. You have no idea what I've experienced. You have no idea what work experience I have completed during university or since yet you insinuated that I didn't do any. You have no idea of my personal circumstances, before, during and after university. You have no idea my reasons for my first degree choice and you have no idea for the reasons behind my second degree choice yet you write as though I made the wrong choices when in fact they were the best choices I could have made in those circumstances.
You've missed the point.

You want to do physiotherapy now, hence I know that you didn't know what you wanted to do as a student, hence I know you were not focused and determined on a career, hence I know why you didn't get a graduate job. It's an inference and a correct one. Why do you keep thinking I'm belittling you? You sound extremely defensive as if I'm being offensive when all I have done is said what you already know but won't admit - that you had no focused career aspirations at university and that is the reason for your lack of graduate employment, not philosophy. You are being offensive to philosophy students worldwide by stating that they have no hope outside of teaching. I find statements like that horrendous, especially when they are based on an experience of someone who did not know what they wanted to do in life and are now blaming it on the arts. A quick look at your thread history confirms your lack of career focus.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
What is telling of my character is that for the past 3 years I've managed to remain calm, civil and polite to people who felt the need to tell me who I am and what choices I should have made when they have no idea what I've experienced and been through during the past 6 years.
And the same can be said for all those thousands of arts students who you are indirectly insulting. You have no idea what they have experienced and been through and how many doors are open to them if they want them to be.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
What is telling of my character is the fact that I'm even entertaining this discussion with you when you have no idea what I've gone through and you'll likely never (fortunately) have to experience it for yourself. What's telling of my character is that I've kept on trying and that I've never given up. What's telling of my character is that I posted on here to warn other students to carefully consider their degree choice and to take heed of the stories of graduates like me. You were the straw that broke the camel's back concerning my ability to continue to be patient, calm and polite when responding to people's comments about my life. Do you know why? Because I've heard it all before in various guises for 3 whole years whilst I've been working tirelessly to progress. You only know that I did a Philosophy degree, didn't get a grad job and am now pursuing an NHS career. What you do not know is any of the circumstances surrounding any of my decisions. Everything looks so easy to criticize on paper, but real lives are not as simple as black and white.
If you have "gone through" more than me I will be astounded. If you're trying to play the "I've been through harder times" card then, please, you're talking to the wrong person. I have balls the size of space hoppers to achieve what I have and the biggest difference between me and people like you is that I openly criticise myself and why I am in a situation - I don't blame it on something as inconsequential as my degree subject when there are hundreds of top graduate employers with no entry requirements bar a 2.1 in any subject! It's not easy to find your passion in life, but that's why you're in this situation, leave the arts out of it.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
What's telling of my character is that I don't want other young people to go through the horrendous stomach dropping experience of sitting in a job center being told they'll have to take 'any work' and ending up doing manual labour on a zero hour contract which works out as less than the minimum wage by the end of the month and they can't support themselves anymore.
So encourage them to be proactive at university: attend insights, apply for Spring/Summer internships, research their career of choice throughout the 3 years of university, get a 1st class, strive for positions of responsibility, go to any length required to get a graduate job offer. Don't tell them that the arts is useless for a permanent job because it's factually wrong.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
You assume that I had no 'drive' and no plan during/after my degree. You could not be more wrong. You seem to base your whole judgement of my and my situation around the idea that I had no clue what I was doing. No. I had particular ambitions and I had work experience in my fields of interest. I know it's easy, as I've said in a previous post to say ''it's your fault'', but I refute that accusation. I did everything I could and it didn't work for me. Statistically, this happens. You don't know me, my life, the reasons for my choices and you certainly don't know my character.
You didn't do enough during your degree. You can say what you like, it's clear from your constant changing of career choices and your decision to now enter a field which is the exact opposite of philosophy that you were unfocused and did not stand out in the eyes of graduate employers. The competition is fierce and those who dabble in different areas won't make it. You did not do everything you could; don't you see that you're lying to yourself? The answer is much simpler - you weren't interested in a particular career enough and hence didn't apply yourself 110% to said career. Those who do will get an offer, those who don't will make up the remaining average student body.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
My situation is not my 'fault' and that's precisely why I posted on here to warn others because I was and am a very hardworking individual, with a good academic record and with work experience.
I don't doubt it; my point is that this isn't close to being enough. Having a good work ethic, a part-time job at university and a 2.1 means nothing. You're sub-par with that application to graduate employers. They want internships, they want stand-out ECs, they want someone who already has the technical knowledge of a first-year junior in their firm. Everyone and their dog has a 2.1 and a job in retail. This is why I'm saying that unless you have an unparalleled drive and focus on a particular career/firm/industry, you won't make it. I didn't say you lack drive full-stop, I said you lacked drive for graduate schemes while at university. The reason being that you weren't sure on the direction you wanted to take your life. Now you do, hence you are driven to secure an offer for physiotherapy whatever the odds. It's that mindset which many students, induing your former philosopher self, lack while at university and then, incredulously, don't understand why they are unemployed. Most of the time it's not their fault, they simply didn't figure out their life plan in time but that doesn't change anything in the eyes of employers.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
If you'd experienced what I've experienced and someone like you said what you've said to me, I think 'prick' is probably one of the nicest things you could think of them. You have no idea and I do not expect you have an ounce of understanding because until you've been through what I have you won't come close to understanding how I feel and you won't understand why I feel so strongly about educating people to be very careful about what degree they choose.
You've repeated this about five times in your post, which ironically presupposes that you do know what I've experienced as you seem to have assumed that you've experienced much more than me. Likewise, if you'd experienced what I've experienced then you wouldn't be using that line and trying to make this into a pissing contest of harsh lives. You're not educating anyone, you're making wild, dangerous and erroneous claims about the arts, and I very much hope they are ignored by budding arts students because the doors open to them are endless if they are proactive, above-average and determined at university.
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(Original post by macromicro)
You've missed the point.
No, I haven't:


(Original post by macromicro)
You want to do physiotherapy now, hence I know that you didn't know what you wanted to do as a student
You do not know that. I was a student 3 years ago. This is what you're hinging your whole argument on and since you're wrong, you've got it all wrong. How on earth can you possibily 'know' what I did or did not want to do as a student. The only person who knows that with certainty is me. You are wrong. I've said that to you and you've ignored it so that you can plough on with your incorrect theory about who I am



(Original post by macromicro)
hence I know you were not focused and determined on a career, hence I know why you didn't get a graduate job. It's an inference and a correct one.
You're wrong.



(Original post by macromicro)
Why do you keep thinking I'm belittling you? You sound extremely defensive as if I'm being offensive when all I have done is said what you already know but won't admit - that you had no focused career aspirations at university and that is the reason for your lack of graduate employment, not philosophy.
Why am I being defensive? Because you're attacking me and telling I wasn't 'focused or determined'. That is wrong and a complete misrepresentation of my character. Not only that, but you're not willing to accept what I tell you about myself (which I know more about than you) and you're hell bent on making me 'admit' to something which is completely untrue. You'd make a good lawyer, but just a reminder - I'm not on trial here.

(Original post by macromicro)
You are being offensive to philosophy students worldwide by stating that they have no hope outside of teaching.
I'm sure if they're confident in their employment prospects, some graduate on TSR won't bother them too much. Why is it bothering you so much?

(Original post by macromicro)
I find statements like that horrendous, especially when they are based on an experience of someone who did not know what they wanted to do in life and are now blaming it on the arts. A quick look at your thread history confirms your lack of career focus.
So your basing my inner thoughts regarding my life based on threads I've created here on TSR? Let me guess what you've unearthed....Law, Medicine, Nursing, Physio?
I've researched all of them as possible career paths because I couldn't get anywhere with Philosophy. You're talking is if I've been passionate about a million different things, that's not the case. The reality is that because Philosophy doesn't up up doors I've looked down other avenues rather than just accepting there's nothing I can do.



(Original post by macromicro)
And the same can be said for all those thousands of arts students who you are indirectly insulting. You have no idea what they have experienced and been through and how many doors are open to them if they want them to be.
I've pointed out in another post that different people have different reasons for doing an arts degree and I agree with some of those reasons, I disagree with others but it's their life and frankly, it makes no difference to me what they do so they can take or leave what I say. But I have a right to have that opinion regardless of whether it offends people. I'm not going to keep quiet just because someone finds what I say 'insulting'.



(Original post by macromicro)
If you have "gone through" more than me I will be astounded. If you're trying to play the "I've been through harder times" card then, please, you're talking to the wrong person. I have balls the size of space hoppers to achieve what I have and the biggest difference between me and people like you is that I openly criticise myself and why I am in a situation - I don't blame it on something as inconsequential as my degree subject when there are hundreds of top graduate employers with no entry requirements bar a 2.1 in any subject! It's not easy to find your passion in life, but that's why you're in this situation, leave the arts out of it.
No, achieved what I achieved despite my circumstances. You want to tell me I have no drive, no ambition, no focus, no work ethic - it doesn't matter how many times you say it to me, I will tell you that you're wrong. You don't know me. You don't know how hard I worked and you don't know my level of ambition. You are wrong about me but you think you know my innermost thoughts regarding what career I wanted and how hard I was willing to work, how could you possibly? It shows complete arrogance.


(Original post by macromicro)
So encourage them to be proactive at university: attend insights, apply for Spring/Summer internships, research their career of choice throughout the 3 years of university, get a 1st class, strive for positions of responsibility, go to any length required to get a graduate job offer. Don't tell them that the arts is useless for a permanent job because it's factually wrong.
And if they do all of that and it doesn't work? Tell them what? That is their fault? Because that's what you're telling me.



(Original post by macromicro)
You didn't do enough during your degree.
I don't remember posting my CV on this thread. How do you know that? You don't, you're making things up to suit your argument.


(Original post by macromicro)
You can say what you like, it's clear from your constant changing of career choices and your decision to now enter a field which is the exact opposite of philosophy that you were unfocused and did not stand out in the eyes of graduate employers.
It was never a case of constantly changing career. It was a case of looking for opportunities that my degree wasn't offering.

(Original post by macromicro)
The competition is fierce and those who dabble in different areas won't make it. You did not do everything you could; don't you see that you're lying to yourself?
You're wrong.


(Original post by macromicro)
Having a good work ethic, a part-time job at university and a 2.1 means nothing. You're sub-par with that application to graduate employers.
Again, you're assuming that's all I had on my application. Why are you assuming that?


I stand by what I've said about arts degrees. I truly believe that in the current economy most students are better off doing a vocational degree. You only have to read the news and look at the stats to see vocational grads have better employment statistics. You can try to defame my character as much as you like but I know the efforts I made and you categorically do not and have no right to proclaim, publicly, that I simply made no effort with regards to my career.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
You do not know that. I was a student 3 years ago. This is what you're hinging your whole argument on and since you're wrong, you've got it all wrong. How on earth can you possibily 'know' what I did or did not want to do as a student. The only person who knows that with certainty is me. You are wrong. I've said that to you and you've ignored it so that you can plough on with your incorrect theory about who I am
I do know that by the power of inference. It's not an argument, it's a clear and obvious observation of why you failed to secure graduate employment and why I succeeded. I am not wrong about my analysis of you and your thread history confirms it. You were not focused on a career at university and that is why graduate employers didn't want you when you had graduated. The people who get into the Civil Service, PwC, Morgan Stanley, etc. are those who have internships and who were focused on those firms at university. I know that because I met them at assessment centres. You were not one of those people otherwise you would have had a job offer. That's how I know. You also have settled on something that does not require a graduate scheme at all - this is also how I know you weren't focused on a career.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Why am I being defensive? Because you're attacking me and telling I wasn't 'focused or determined'. That is wrong and a complete misrepresentation of my character. Not only that, but you're not willing to accept what I tell you about myself (which I know more about than you) and you're hell bent on making me 'admit' to something which is completely untrue. You'd make a good lawyer, but just a reminder - I'm not on trial here.
I'm not attacking you. You were attacking a subject - indeed the entire arts field - which I hold very dear and as someone with a BA and many friends at top firms with BAs in Philosophy, English, Politics and Classics, it is objectively wrong to make sweeping statements about the uselessness of philosophy degrees, even moreso when you are not qualified nor experienced to make such claims. Have you been to assessment centres in all areas of graduate employment? Then it is not valid to make the claim that philosophy is hopeless outside of teaching. Your advice in this thread has been reckless, ill-informed and based on the wrong factor, i.e. your subject and not your lack of early career focus.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I'm sure if they're confident in their employment prospects, some graduate on TSR won't bother them too much. Why is it bothering you so much?
Well I am "some graduate on TSR" and I seem to be bothering you so, to the contrary, people will be bothered. More to the point though, young teenagers come here for advice and threads like this contribute to a malicious myth that you will only be successful in employment if you choose a vocational or practical degree and that the arts are just for "fun" and not for serious employment. It's misinformed tripe. Complete bunkum. Degree subject means nothing and 50% of lawyers in City law firms would agree wholeheartedly, not to mention my ex-colleagues at Grant Thornton, my ex-interns at KPMG and all the other thousands of arts graduates who are now management and strategy consultants, qualified accountants, business advisors, bankers, civil servants, journalists, etc.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
So your basing my inner thoughts regarding my life based on threads I've created here on TSR? Let me guess what you've unearthed....Law, Medicine, Nursing, Physio?
I've researched all of them as possible career paths because I couldn't get anywhere with Philosophy. You're talking is if I've been passionate about a million different things, that's not the case. The reality is that because Philosophy doesn't up up doors I've looked down other avenues rather than just accepting there's nothing I can do.
This is backwards and a forthright lie. Philosophy opens up the same doors that economics and law do, for example. Your focus on different healthcare professions shows that your choice to do philosophy was never going to open up the doors you wanted them to, just as every degree bar medically-specific ones wouldn't either. Philosophy didn't get you anywhere because a) you wanted to enter the healthcare profession and b) you didn't apply yourself fully to graduate schemes while at university and left it too late. By the time you graduate you are competing with people like me who had Spring and Summer internships/insights, mounds of research and knowledge and networking on particular targeted firms, and a strong focus on breaking into those firms. I am tired of reading about arts graduates who blame their employment prospects on their subject as if employers give two flying farts about what modules you studied at university. They care about transferable skills, soft skills, prestigious experience, firm/market-specific knowledge, raw intelligence, stand-out ECs and a 1st class. There are so many endless factors that go into a successful application that blaming it solely on degree subject is insultingly obtuse and frankly unbelievable, hence my reaction to your posts.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I've pointed out in another post that different people have different reasons for doing an arts degree and I agree with some of those reasons, I disagree with others but it's their life and frankly, it makes no difference to me what they do so they can take or leave what I say. But I have a right to have that opinion regardless of whether it offends people. I'm not going to keep quiet just because someone finds what I say 'insulting'.
Of course, and I am refuting your posts and giving viewers of this thread another perspective, which I equally have the right to. The difference is that I don't make unfounded generalisations and don't hide away from painful truths.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
No, achieved what I achieved despite my circumstances. You want to tell me I have no drive, no ambition, no focus, no work ethic - it doesn't matter how many times you say it to me, I will tell you that you're wrong.
As I already said, I don't think that of you or anyone else on here. What I do think of you is that you didn't have drive, ambition, focus and a strong work ethic for particular firms/graduate schemes while at university studying philosophy. I can guarantee you have no internships or a 1st class (you would have mentioned them by now). Both of these are a massive hindrance on your application. The student mindset on average is "wait until final year to worry about jobs" and "just scrape a 2.1" and then ultimately "omg the government doesn't care about graduate jobs it's all a scam" and "why did I study something useless now I'm on the dole!!!!" I'm not saying these are all you but this is what employers would think when they see your application. You have to set yourself apart. People forget that graduate schemes are extremely lucrative for the graduate and expensive for the employer - they are reserved for the best students who stand out, not anyone who muddles their way through.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
And if they do all of that and it doesn't work? Tell them what? That is their fault? Because that's what you're telling me.
It will work if they actually do what I listed (very few actually do) but of course it's their fault if they fail - it's certainly no one else's fault. If they do all of that, to the best of their ability, and they fail then they were not good enough this time and need to improve if it is their ambition to work in that particular firm/market. High-paying, prestigious graduate jobs at big firms are limited and competitive; you have to be part of the top percentage to get a place. If they continue to fail then their dream of working at that firm will be tested: they can give up and set their sights lower or they can improve further. Anyone can get a graduate scheme at a top firm but very few have the desire and determination to go the extra mile in order to secure it. The majority of students in my cohort did not apply to first-year Spring internships, did not apply to penultimate year Summer internships, did not spend their free time researching their choice of firms/industry/career for 3 years, did not aspire for challenging roles of responsibility and leadership, did not thoroughly delve into their subject and aim for a 1st class, did not think beyond graduation. Those who did, succeeded.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I don't remember posting my CV on this thread. How do you know that? You don't, you're making things up to suit your argument.
I know that because you didn't get a graduate job. If you had done enough, you would have secured a graduate job. Hence you didn't do enough.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
It was never a case of constantly changing career. It was a case of looking for opportunities that my degree wasn't offering.
Nonsense. Your degree subject doesn't determine what your interests and career choices are; you've got it backwards. Any degree choice except physiotherapy would have been wrong for physiotherapy; your situation is a product of you not knowing which career to strive for and nothing else.

(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
I stand by what I've said about arts degrees. I truly believe that in the current economy most students are better off doing a vocational degree. You only have to read the news and look at the stats to see vocational grads have better employment statistics.
Your interest in a career comes first, the chances of entering that career comes second. Of course vocational degrees lead to better employment prospects - that is self-evident by its own definition. But unless you have a direct and strong interest in that vocational course to pursue a career then the statistics are irrelevant. The current economy is one of growth and misinformed students who don't understand how to obtain a graduate job because people like you fill their heads with this TSR drivel about degree subjects and university prestige and employment stats. It's all meaningless. The best thing you can tell an A-level student is to focus on a particular subject and career of strong interest at university and attack it proactively, directly and impressively. The point you are continually missing is that employment stats are defined by yourself; if you acquire an internship, insights, 1st class, positions of responsibility, and go above and beyond your peers then your chances have now dramatically increased and only someone who has a strong interest will do all of these things. More to the point, the choice is not simply between the arts and vocational degrees, there is a whole array of subjects that fall between them, such as physics, chemistry, biology, economics, management, political science, etc. You should apply to a vocational degree if that is the career you want to pursue and you have a strong interest in that degree, otherwise don't.
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(Original post by macromicro)
Of course vocational degrees lead to better employment prospects - that is self-evident by its own definition.
Hallelujah.
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(Original post by somethingbeautiful)
Hallelujah.
Saying that philosophy is useless for employment outside of teaching is not equivalent to saying that vocational degrees offer higher employment statistics, nor is this the only factor of importance.
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