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The lesson for Labour: The UK doesn't want socialism watch

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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Does it not strike you as just slightly ridiculous to just discount the election we had three days ago, and rely on an unscientific website poll, with a completely unknown sample?

    Some might call that clutching at straws.
    Not exactly. I didn't discount the election, I just offered an alternative perspective.

    Politics is becoming less and less about policy. We're in an age of spin, soundbites and spin-doctoring. Personality is starting to trump policy - nobody can deny that; just look at the unfair treatment and media portrayal of Ed Miliband (Wallace and Gromit; Bacon sandwich incident; Ralph Miliband). Media hostility cost the Labour party dearly in this election.

    Collectively, the 'socialists' (Labour, Greens and SNP for the purposes of this thread) achieved almost 40% of the vote. Conservatives and UKIP combined achieved 50% of the vote. A 10% margin of difference isn't easily dismissible, but it hardly amounts to a conclusion that the "UK doesn't want socialism". Then, if you factor in that 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote, it complicates matters even more.

    The VoteForPolicies, actually, is a pretty well-respected and widely-cited source. Its poll is simply based extracts from each party's manifesto - how on earth can it be "scientific?" Jesus. And the above figures were based on almost 900,000 questionnaires.
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    (Original post by demx9)
    Are you basing an entire countries views on the data from one website ?

    The UK is a fundamentally conservative country, you just have to accept that
    See above.

    I'm not trying to make a judgement on the whole of the UK; I was just offering a little more perspective.

    It's naive at best to argue that a Tory majority in 2015 confirms the notion that the "UK doesn't want socialism".
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    Not exactly. I didn't discount the election, I just offered an alternative perspective.

    Politics is becoming less and less about policy. We're in an age of spin, soundbites and spin-doctoring. Personality is starting to trump policy - nobody can deny that; just look at the unfair treatment and media portrayal of Ed Miliband (Wallace and Gromit; Bacon sandwich incident; Ralph Miliband). Media hostility cost the Labour party dearly in this election.

    Collectively, the 'socialists' (Labour, Greens and SNP for the purposes of this thread) achieved almost 40% of the vote. Conservatives and UKIP combined achieved 50% of the vote. A 10% margin of difference isn't easily dismissible, but it hardly amounts to a conclusion that the "UK doesn't want socialism". Then, if you factor in that 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote, it complicates matters even more.

    The VoteForPolicies, actually, is a pretty well-respected and widely-cited source. Its poll is simply based extracts from each party's manifesto - how on earth can it be "scientific?" Jesus. And the above figures were based on almost 900,000 questionnaires.
    SNP don't count outside of Scotland, so the rest of the UK is more Conservative.
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    I fear people are rapidly losing their humanity. :sad:
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    (Original post by Feels)
    SNP don't count outside of Scotland, so the rest of the UK is more Conservative.
    But Scotland does count as part of the United Kingdom. The question in hand asked about the UK - not specifically England.
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    But Scotland does count as part of the United Kingdom. The question in hand asked about the UK - not specifically England.
    and you missed out Wales and Northern Ireland, the SNP vote is isolated to one nation which likely won't be with us in a decade.
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    (Original post by Feels)
    and you missed out Wales and Northern Ireland, the SNP vote is isolated to one nation which likely won't be with us in a decade.
    It doesn't matter. I wasn't including every party - just the significant few on either side (left/right). Together, those parties achieve 90% of the national share. I specifically left out the Lib Dems for that reason - they firmly sit in the centre.

    Again, the point in question addressed the UK as a whole, not England.
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    It doesn't matter. I wasn't including every party - just the significant few on either side (left/right). Together, those parties achieve 90% of the national share. I specifically left out the Lib Dems for that reason - they firmly sit in the centre.

    Again, the point in question addressed the UK as a whole, not England.
    The SNP doesn't represent the UK as a whole, so it shouldn't be included.
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    See above.

    I'm not trying to make a judgement on the whole of the UK; I was just offering a little more perspective.

    It's naive at best to argue that a Tory majority in 2015 confirms the notion that the "UK doesn't want socialism".
    Funny that the only time Labour could win was with "New Labour" aka compassionate capitalism.

    As a socialist myself I would like to see a real socialist party gaining popularity but I just don't see that happening in the UK
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    Scotland != South of England

    Why is Labour strong up north? Because it appeals to the down trodden and decimated industry in the north, when Osborne kicks the Northern Powerhouse you'll expect that to go as well.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    knowing they are electoral poison in this largely right wing country.
    So basically, there is no place for Labour in the UK? Makes me laugh Labour "going to the right"...... if you do that, then you're the Tories, so let the Tories be the Tories.

    England isn't left-wing, so go to Wales, they'll accept Labour!
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    (Original post by Feels)
    The SNP doesn't represent the UK as a whole, so it shouldn't be included.
    Why shouldn't it? And why does it have to?

    Is Scotland part of the UK? Yes. Are the Scottish eligible to vote in Westminster Elections? Yes. Ergo, Scottish voters have a right to be included in this discussion.

    Why should their voices be any quieter? They're part of the UK and thus form part of the basis for "UK values". It doesn't matter who or what the SNP represent - this thread approaches the issue from purely a left/right perspective.

    (Original post by demx9)
    Funny that the only time Labour could win was with "New Labour" aka compassionate capitalism.

    As a socialist myself I would like to see a real socialist party gaining popularity but I just don't see that happening in the UK
    The centre-ground has definitely shifted to the right. Median voter data all conclusively confirm this. I accept that. But does it amount to a complete rejection of socialism? I'm not too sure. Clearly, 'socialism' garnered quite a significant amount of support in this election.
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    The public are left leaning when asked about the above sort of stuff but for whatever reason don't vote for governments that even remotely reflect the above.



    Shy Tory factor? To scared to ignore media scaremongering when it comes to placing the X on polling day? It's all nice in theory but it wont work in relaity?

    It's like in america, if you ask people do they support the idea that those who fall out of the system should receive help from the government to support them they generally agree. But the moment you sue the term "welfare" and "benefit" they immediately reject the notion. This is probably because those terms have been propagandized to the myth of a "black woman (they love the old racism over there) driving an expensive car, popping out babies just so she can live a life of luxury whilst you work your but off for nothing"

    So they then vote republican.

    Who knows :dontknow:
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    So basically, there is no place for Labour in the UK? Makes me laugh Labour "going to the right"...... if you do that, then you're the Tories, so let the Tories be the Tories.

    England isn't left-wing, so go to Wales, they'll accept Labour!

    It is hard to see how Labour will ever win a majority again, to be fair. This is an existential crisis. They have lost Scotland and seem to despise the English, a feeling that was reciprocated in this election.

    Labour is largely now the party of middle class intellectuals and the BME population. The white working class (on which the party was founded) are turning to UKIP. In enough numbers to deny Labour the crucial marginals in England. Sure the BME population is a growing demographic, but by the time it threatens to become decisive most BME voters will probably have got rich and turned Tory anyway.

    As for Socialism don't be naive, with one (significant) exception, 1945, Labour has never been Socialist in its over 100 year history, and never will be again.
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    See above.

    I'm not trying to make a judgement on the whole of the UK; I was just offering a little more perspective.

    It's naive at best to argue that a Tory majority in 2015 confirms the notion that the "UK doesn't want socialism".
    Apart from 1945, when has the UK ever voted for Socialism?
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    (Original post by Burridge)
    Not exactly. I didn't discount the election, I just offered an alternative perspective.

    Politics is becoming less and less about policy. We're in an age of spin, soundbites and spin-doctoring. Personality is starting to trump policy - nobody can deny that; just look at the unfair treatment and media portrayal of Ed Miliband (Wallace and Gromit; Bacon sandwich incident; Ralph Miliband). Media hostility cost the Labour party dearly in this election.

    Collectively, the 'socialists' (Labour, Greens and SNP for the purposes of this thread) achieved almost 40% of the vote. Conservatives and UKIP combined achieved 50% of the vote. A 10% margin of difference isn't easily dismissible, but it hardly amounts to a conclusion that the "UK doesn't want socialism". Then, if you factor in that 1/3 of the electorate didn't vote, it complicates matters even more.

    The VoteForPolicies, actually, is a pretty well-respected and widely-cited source. Its poll is simply based extracts from each party's manifesto - how on earth can it be "scientific?" Jesus. And the above figures were based on almost 900,000 questionnaires.
    The problem with calling Labour socialist is that it fundamentaly skews the ops point. Labour is not socialist, and it's not even particularly close to being so.

    This is the result of what the electorate wants. By 1979 socialism had had its day, leading to successive tory governments. Even after 13 years of Thatcher, John Major was still able to win an outright majority because the public didn't like ho w left wing Labour were.. Labour knew that the only way they could win an election was to move right,and this is whats been happening since the mid 90s. They have not moved back.
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    "To chase the centre is to chase the ever-shifting territory of your opponent’s demarcation, and to recoil at the charge that you are “left” is like crumpling at the insult “mother****er”; it has no concrete meaning, and its abstract meaning is simply that a person disagrees."
 
 
 

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