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What leads to fear of commitment in men? watch

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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    1. I disagree that it is fear. It is a decision made to advance your interests. Fear is "an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm." This is not fear because there is no emotion into this. It is merely decision making. Think about it in a more logical sense. Imagine you have a robot on the floor whose goal is to reach some point ahead of him. There are obstacles in his way so he needs to avoid them when he faces them. What this robot does is what men do: decision making. He avoids situations (bumping into obstacles) that prevent him for reaching his goal. His behaviour and that of men can be explained without resorting to fear.
    2. I disagree. All you need is the ability to recognise potentially harmful situations and avoid them as appropriate. Fear is only one of many ways to do this.
    3. Assumption made: that fear is the driving force in men lives. It is not. Point 1 elaborates on this.
    4. There are almost as many definitions of love as there are people in this planet. Every Joe and his mum has a unique definition. I won't argue about your definition just making it clear that there is no one definition of love so talking about it is pointless unless we agree on a definition of love (which we probably won't and is not the topic of this thread anyway).
    5. Incorrect. Fear is biological mechanism (more specifically, a biochemical mechanism) that increases the likelihood of self-preservation at any point in your life (and hence increases your survival rates).
    6. Maybe it was not obvious but I was approaching this from a game theoretic and evolutionary perspective. In that case I was explaining that for your average heterosexual male, one of the benefits of commitment is access to regular sex without the threat of STIs (and in some cases, unwanted pregnancies). I did not mean to say that this is a benefit for females too. I specifically made clear that the sum of the benefits from a commitment differs depending on your sex. The reasons for this are evolutionary. You also imply that access to regular sex and "substance in a man's life" are mutually exclusive. This needs not to be the case. What is substantial and what isn't depends on your sex. For example, having a family with your partner might be substantial to you but it might be substantial to an average male. Similarly, the freedom to move geographically on a whim might be substantial for an aveage male but it might not be substantial to you.
    7. Life is a game, dear.
    I'm sorry I'm not convinced I still continue to see it as a fear and it seems you will still continue to not see it as one so we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
    Men are not robots they are complex human beings. They are not just decision makers or purely logical automata that run off of computer programming. They do have emotions, they have desires, they have passions and many other things that influence decision making.
    I did not assume nor did I say that fear was the driving force in men's lives at all, I said it becomes a problem when it dominates your life and I was referring to humans in that respect not just men. Once again if you read my OP I am not saying that all men have this fear but I admitted that is was common in the men that I have personally encountered, but I am trying to take responsibility and recognise that I attract men who are emotionally unavailable like my own father is and basically work out where I am going wrong and how to fix it (and no I don't go for the player/jock type of guys I wish it was that simple I actually go for the geeky ones who seem nice but then later reveal their true intentions).
    Yes I agree that regular sex is a benefit I never said it was not. However I just found it interesting that it was the only benefit in your analysis. Why might that be?
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    1. Surely, if you can source your happiness from yourself it is much better than sourcing from someone else. Namely because that someone else might abandon you one day. And stats shows that he will abandon at some point in the future (and apparently, in the early stages break-up rates are quite high). As a rule of thumb, independence and not dependence seems to be favoured by most people in most areas of life.

    2. Family is not likely to abandon you. Your partner is.

    3. You assume that it will be long-term. But your partner can abandon you at some point in the future, or your partner can die. Both of these are quite likely and the latter becomes more likely as time passes. At any point, you are highly likely to spent your last days of your life (assuming you reach them) without a source of happiness. That's quite miserable to me!

    4. The notion of half and whole is only a metaphor for dependent and independent. A whole does not dependent on anyone but himself while a half depends on someone else. Those are subjective notions.
    Why do you believe your family won't abandon you but a partner will? Anyone can abandon you. And yes everyone dies. It's true we are born alone and will most likely die alone but does that mean we should just live life as a single cell.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I think this is understandable that men have a fear of getting their assets taken off them. However if men picked women of high value and equal status do you think this would be the case? Kayne West and other hip hop artists as an example mess around with a low calibre of women to be honest who have little to bring to the table other than booty.
    But where are these ladies? The entire legal system is flawed in favour of women so that's why marriage has become such a taboo, nobody can be trusted no more, one wrong turn and a man can lose his kids, wealth and his entire life.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    You misunderstand the issue. It is not about fear it is about cost-risk situation evaluations. If a situation has a poor cost-risk ratio, you avoid going that path. That avoidance is not necessarily fear. A female might want to avoid someone who looks far younger/weaker than her for the same reason a male might want to go for someone with those traits. It is not fear, it's a matter of goals and checking those goals against the cost-risk ratio of different situations. At the end of the day, you have some goals and you want to do your best to reach them.

    Your use of 'fear' only seems to put a negative spin on the male sexual behaviour. Now it is likely that males' decisions in avoiding commitment are influenced by fear - the possibility of ending up in an undesirable state. But females have the same possibility when they reject sex outside of a relationship because of fear to end up in an undesirable state. So perhaps, you could say that poor ratio in cost-risk evaluations of commitment leads men to avoid commitment, but you could say the same for women and sex outside of a relationship. But this is natural because males and females have different goals evolutionarily speaking. And seeing the vast range of sexed life forms it seems to be something of an advantage.
    I'm not trying to demonize male sexuality at the end of the day it is their prerogative to do what they want it's not up to me I'm not here to tell people what to do. And I already said that 'fear' was not a bad thing or negative, at least in my book but I'm sorry if the use of this word is evocative to you. I am curious to debate as to what leads to this and also I am trying to look at what role we women play in this and why men seem to becoming more and more distrusting of us. Some people are stating biological reasons, some socio-economic, some both.

    I acknowledged in my OP females can be scared of commitment this is not about just attacking men or tarring them with the same brush. However since women not wanting to commit does not affect my personal circumstances I am only currently interested in the reasons that men are but people are welcome to create another thread to explore that too.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Hi I'm just wanting to know people's thoughts on some of the factors that lead to some men being so afraid of commitment. Of course I'm aware that some women have the same fear of commitment but I suspect the reasons are different and I would like to explore the reasons in men.

    In case you are curious I am in my mid 20s and have only ever attracted men who turned out to be emotionally unavailable and fear commitment, and as a result I have never made it to being the girlfriend (no I didn't sleep with any of the men). I'm sick of these men being drawn to me but also acknowledge that there must be a reason I am drawing them into my life. I've been trying to look within to see why this might be and the only thing I can think of is my father is has always been physically present (still married to mother, living with us) but emotionally absent. What can I do?
    Life is about balance. Girls can be very determined about the long term( marriage stuff ) early on in life. This makes lads uneasy. There is inbalance so as a result it makes a guy question his ground on such matters...and he takes the more cautious road often and ends it. so yeh at our age because women tend to be too long term focused.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    4. The notion of half and whole is only a metaphor for dependent and independent. A whole does not dependent on anyone but himself while a half depends on someone else. Those are subjective notions.
    Is it your goal to be a "whole", i.e. independent?
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    Red flags makes me fear commitment. That those problems I see will not resolve and I don't want to spend the rest of my life putting up with them.
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    From Personal Experience:

    - A ****ty Childhood
    - Bad relationships
    - Been stepped on enough that trust doesn't come easy

    Will say one thing though, the more a woman pushes for a commitment, the less likely you're to get it.
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Is it your goal to be a "whole", i.e. independent?
    I don't think independence is an objective notion.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    I don't think it is fear. It is simply avoiding a situation that you don't currently consider to have a good cost-benefit ratio. Let me repeat it again, it is not fear imo. In more game theoretic terms: commitment has too many risks (financial and psychological) and too few benefits (secure access to regular sex for a period of time ranging from now till her menopause) for your average male when compared to singlehood which has few risks (STIs, unwanted pregnancies) and too many benefits (freedom to pursue female mates or to play out any of your fantasies - because chances are you will find someone who shares your fantasies, your finances are for your sole benefit, no relationship/cheating drama, no break-up drama, freedom to move around geographically, freedom to dedicate your time to things of your interest -as opposed to having to dedicated part/half of your time to things you don't care about).

    It is all a game where the interests of a player are evolutionarily defined by their sex. Females have a goal and males have another. It is only rational that each player will attempt to do whatever is needed to ensure he/she reaches his/her goal.
    Wait till you try to buy a house though. She can bring her and potentially her family's capital to bear. Plus when you are busy working all hours the last thing you want to do is hang around bars getting rejected by girls ten years younger than you.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    1.Wait till you try to buy a house though. 2.She can bring her and potentially her family's capital to bear. Plus 3.when you are busy working all hours the last thing you want to do is hang around bars getting rejected by girls ten years younger than you.
    1. Wait till you divorce and have to sell it
    2. That's a good point but bear in mind that you are sharing a house though
    3. If you are busy working all hours, your relationship will suffer till the point of divorce anyway so you will end up hanging around bars getting rejected by girls ten years younger than you. If you are going to be in a relationship, the last thing you should do is not having time for it
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    You don't remind them of your fruedian mother-figure.
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    I find it hard making important decisions.

    Getting married scares me. I don't think I ever want to get married, this may well cause problems in the future.

    Plus if/when I do eventually get in that situation I have no experience. It will all be new to me and I don't know what I am doing
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I'm sorry I'm not convinced 1.I still continue to see it as a fear and it seems you will still continue to not see it as one so we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
    2. Men are not robots they are complex human beings. 3.They are not just decision makers or purely logical automata that run off of computer programming. They do have emotions, they have desires, they have passions and many other things that influence decision making.
    I did not assume nor did I say that fear was the driving force in men's lives at all, 4.I said it becomes a problem when it dominates your life and I was referring to humans in that respect not just men. Once again if you read my OP I am not saying that all men have this fear but I admitted that is was common in the men that I have personally encountered, but
    5. I am trying to take responsibility and recognise that I attract men who are emotionally unavailable like my own father is and 6. basically work out where I am going wrong and how to fix it (and no I don't go for the player/jock type of guys I wish it was that simple I actually go for the geeky ones who seem nice but then later reveal their true intentions).
    Yes I agree that regular sex is a benefit I never said it was not. However 7.I just found it interesting that it was the only benefit in your analysis. Why might that be?
    1. Then you should also call 'fear' women's avoidance of regular non-committal sex.
    2. Another assumption made: robots are simple. Incorrect. They are complex enough that their behaviour highlights the rationality of our own behaviour.
    3. Again, incorrect. Humans (just like like all mammals - and pretty much every single life form out there) are decision makers. This means that they make decisions. Emotions are essentially biochemical drives that serve to give humans goals. Not too different to wiring a machine to give it a goal.
    4. Well, you could make the exact same argument for women's avoidance of non-committal sex. If you make that the equivalent argument for women, I will agree with you. Otherwise, this is biased towards the goals of the members of your sex (making males see commitment as a goal worth of all the risks it carries).
    5. Is your father attracted to you? Jesus Christ.
    6. Well you are trying to solve a puzzle and the strategy of many of the males you see as potential mates is to prevent your solving of the puzzle. I would say older men are more likely to go for commitment than younger ones. You could start there but the ultimate test is time. You can only keep up a façade for so long.
    7. Gosh, you really don't know much about males do you? Surely, your experience with your partners must have taught you something. Let me spell it for you: I would say that as a rule of thumb, males value sex more than females do and they value non-committal sex higher than sex in a relationship. Now your average male might also value other things such as having someone to talk to when feeling down, having a partner as a symbol of someone's attractiveness and the like. But none of rate as high as sex. Note that this is a rule of thumb not a fact or universal that applies to every single male. It is merely a trend. That's the reason I only include sex for males and commitment for women (which interestingly enough, you did not question why I only consider commitment as women's only goal in the evolutionary game).
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I find it hard making important decisions.

    Getting married scares me. I don't think I ever want to get married, this may well cause problems in the future.

    Plus if/when I do eventually get in that situation I have no experience. It will all be new to me and I don't know what I am doing
    You see that thing with a hole and that longish thing?
    You just have to apply a vector on the longish thing a vector such that when moved across a relatively straight path, it will decelerate when the longish thing goes through the hole.

    And that my physical friend, is called putting a finger on a ring (far more amusing to tell than putting a ring on a finger).

    When thinking about the problems of marriage in the future, imagine a dynamical system such that initial differences (such as whether to call the kid John or James and whether to paint your bedroom walls blue or black) will gradually grow with time till your differences are unbridgeable and you have to call it a day.
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    Interesting thread. Since you are only talking about boyfriends, I think there is some deeper issue. A man could be your boyfriend AND secretly sleep around without too many problems, so just "becoming someone's boyfriend" isn't even such a big commitment.

    I think that they probably just want to try things out with a person first to potentially avoid drama later-on. So before the commitment stage, they need a non-committed stage to test the waters so-to-speak. Maybe you misinterpret this as not wanting commitment at any stage?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    1.Why do you believe your family won't abandon you but a partner will? Anyone can abandon you. 2.And yes everyone dies. 3. It's true we are born alone and will most likely die alone but does that mean we should just live life as a single cell.
    1. I don't think your family will abandon you, I think they are likely to do so but not as likely as your partner. And really, when it comes to rates of abandonment in the western world, the stats favour family far more than they favour partners.

    2. Normally, a family is made of more than one member so it is unlikely that death will take them all at once even if the cause of death is genetic. While the death of partner leaves you alone. Hence, you could say that family is more death-resilient than a partner.

    3. No one is advocating living like an hermit. You can still have friends and have family so you are not exactly alone. Your conclusion that a partner-less life is a life where you live alone is therefore incorrect.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    You see that thing with a hole and that longish thing?
    You just have to apply a vector on the longish thing a vector such that when moved across a relatively straight path, it will decelerate when the longish thing goes through the hole.

    And that my physical friend, is called putting a finger on a ring (far more amusing to tell than putting a ring on a finger).
    I thought you were describing something else involving vectors and holes :teehee::teheee:
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    1.I'm not trying to demonize male sexuality at the end of the day it is their prerogative to do what they want it's not up to me 2.I'm not here to tell people what to do. And 3.I already said that 'fear' was not a bad thing or negative, at least in my book but I'm sorry if the use of this word is evocative to you. 4.I am curious to debate as to what leads to this and also 5.I am trying to look at what role we women play in this and 6.why men seem to becoming more and more distrusting of us. 7.Some people are stating biological reasons, some socio-economic, some both.

    8. I acknowledged in my OP females can be scared of commitment this is not about just attacking men or tarring them with the same brush. However since 9.women not wanting to commit does not affect my personal circumstances 10.I am only currently interested in the reasons that men are but people are welcome to create another thread to explore that too.
    1. But you are. You are using the term fear to describe males' avoidance of something that they are not interested in (commitment) without using the same term to describe females' avoidance of something that they are not interested in (non-committal sex).
    2. No, you are not. You are here to learn what makes people do stuff you (presumably) want them to do. And I understand it, because what they what you want them to do is for your benefit.
    3. See point 1.
    4. I already told you. It's the evolution of sex, the so-called sex arms-race
    5. See point 4.
    6. Another assumption you made: men are becoming more distrusting of women. I have lost count of how many assumptions you made.
    7. Well, there is a collection of factors whose interplay result in the current distribution of sexual behaviour you see.
    8. See point 3
    9. Nor does it affect the interests of many males insofar as it does influence the sexual availability of said individual
    10. See point 5

    You might also want to read my first post again. Seems like quite a few TSR users agree with what I stated there.

    (Original post by trustmeimlying1)
    Life is about balance. Girls can be very determined about the long term( marriage stuff ) early on in life. This makes lads uneasy. There is inbalance so as a result it makes a guy question his ground on such matters...and he takes the more cautious road often and ends it. so yeh at our age because women tend to be too long term focused.
    It is like the milkmaid tale. If you think too ahead without ensuring the path that leads to it, you jeopardise your future. Thus, it is logical that someone who wants to ensure the future, takes steps to ensure the present. And the only way available to someone to do that is by making someone promise he won't run away the second he sees someone more suitable. In other words, you make the person make that implicit promise by making him commit to stay to you. This is an evolutionary strategy that is seen in mammals whose ovulation is not visible. And apparently, it works wonders!
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I thought you were describing something else involving vectors and holes :teehee::teheee:
    Ah, my user. Your physical mind is like an attractor such that no matter what the initial conditions are, the basin of attractor is structured in a way that given any post written to you, the final result will a reply to you mentioning coitus.



    Leaving coitus aside, what's your take on:

    a) The multiverse idea
    b) the idea that quantum physics appears not to be deterministic (or is it that it is not random, we just lack the appropriate tools to determine behaviour at the quantum level?)
    c) Hawkings' recent announcement about black holes

    I hope I will get your answer in 13320 seconds. (This was not a good pun )

    Sorry for asking but, how come you are working in such a non-sciency job? You don't live in a town in the middle of nowhere do you? Shouldn't you be working as physicist or in finance? Just curious
 
 
 
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