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Attention those who have done a second undergraduate degree watch

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    (Original post by Josb)
    Why didn't you apply for a law degree in the first place?
    He won't listen

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    (Original post by Josb)
    Why didn't you apply for a law degree in the first place?
    Doing a law degree is generally a poor idea as far as gaining pupillage goes. This is because it is significantly harder to be accepted on to a law course at a good university than it is for other degrees as well as significantly harder to graduate with a first from a good university than in other degrees. Since the Bar care about university prestige and degree class far beyond anything else academically, it is infinitely more sensible to do something other than law if you want to gain pupillage at the Bar.
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    (Original post by justag)
    He won't listen

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    I won't be persuaded by advice that is poor and factually incorrect, no, flattering as your constant shadowing is becoming. As above.
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    To go back to your original question on how to fund a second undergrad degree, a previous poster mentioned the Professional & Career Development Loan. Thought I ought to mention that you will not be able to get one for an undergraduate degree. They are for courses of a maximum two years length for which there is no other funding available (undergrad degrees are eligible for Student Finance, even though you won't be as it would be your second degree).
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    (Original post by giella)
    I do actually know something about the legal profession. I've actually worked as a fee earner for six months and done a vacation scheme and I make it my business to know as part of my job.
    Then you demonstrate an astonishingly poor understanding of your bag.

    A recent client of mine was senior partner at a national legal firm, whose specialty was insolvency law and I actually had a conversation with him about this very subject as I found it interesting that neither of his children was interested in following him into law. You're making quite a lot of assumptions.
    Could you be specific about what exactly these 'assumptions' are?

    Whilst an Oxbridge degree is currency, that's generally only the case for career changers and first time undergraduates.
    That is nonsense. An Oxbridge degree is not worth less professionally when it is someone's second degree.

    You know what actually counts these days? Experience, contacts, commercial awareness, positions of responsibility and so forth. You're not going to gain jack from doing a second undergraduate at Oxbridge or elsewhere if you don't have that.People aiming for a law degree are doing this from day one of their undergraduate degrees, be it in law or anything else. If you're serious about a legal career you would be applying for every vacation scheme going, doing anything you could to make an impression on potential future employers, applying for internships and so forth and going for every opportunity going in law without giving a damn about where you ended up doing your law degree in the hope that someone would sponsor you for the GDL and the LPC. This would be from day one.
    This is also largely nonsense. Commercial awareness is important, but contacts mean precisely nothing for the Bar (I have family members and family friends at the Bar already, however, and this wouldn't be an issue if it were the case). Nor does doing mini-pupillages, aside from meeting a base standard of experience. There is very little 'experience' that the Bar offers before pupillage, and certainly nothing that will exceptionally advance an application. What they offer is for the benefit of personal insight in prospective candidates rather than meat to build up an application. It is painfully obvious that you are on the solicitor route by how wrong your understanding is of what matters in a pupillage application.

    I have it from the horse's mouth that the Bar cares overwhelmingly for your acadmic profile - that is almost entirely what will get you interviews for pupillage. After this point it is a matter of acing interviews and generally being an interesting human being - one of these barriaters recounted how a recent pupil had done kick-boxing in her spare time, and that this tidbit had caught his eye on the pupillage committee - though scholarships from Inns and mooting competitions also play a part. Actual work experience in the field is essentially irrelevant beyond personal development and the near compulsory mini-pupillage and shadowing of judges; contacts mean nothing and having been the president of your uni accommodation's JCR similarly counts for nil. The academic profile and interview is what really matters.

    I am essentially playing devil's advocate; as is quite obvious, my planning to do a second undergraduate degree at Oxbridge for the benefit of my academic profile by no means indicates that I am not doing and do not intend to do any of the things you have prematurely accused me of neglecting. Motes and beams, as far as making assumptions goes. But your understanding of priorities in gaining pupillage remains lamentable and all the more so for how arrogantly it is displayed.

    Not once have you mentioned this in any of your career plans
    Clearly your keen forensic mind has not clocked that this thread was not intended as a broadcasting station for my future career plans.

    The fact is, you're hoping to avoid doing a law degree now anywhere other than Oxbridge because you don't think you would be good enough as just a law graduate from an okay or decent university.
    Correct. This is a policy I have been advised to adopt by commercial London barristers, who have themselves either benefited from it personally or rewarded those that have followed it with a pupillage. It's an intelligent route and I don't know why you are so strangely hostile towards it. The country is flooded with law grads with unexceptional scores from unexceptional universities, large numbers of them herding towards the pupillage portal. It is quite plain that in order to stand out in a selection process which massively weights academics, superior universities and/or degree classifications are basically essential for pupillage these days, and doing law at a bog standard RG is basically the worst possible way of attempting to achieve this. If you doubt this I suggest you ask for a second opinion from nulli tertius or someone similarly knowledgeable.

    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    x
    You're hoping that converting into an Oxbridge graduate would be your way of jumping the queue. If you were planning on becoming an attractive candidate for a training contract or even a pupillage, you wouldn't even need to be planning on doing a senior status degree in law at this stage.
    Since being an attractive candidate for pupillage depends almost entirely upon the strength of your academic profile, this is obviously not the case.

    You're naive and fairly single minded on this one. And apparently in a minority.
    I'm not naive at all, you are misinformed. A few rambunctious keyboard warriors with no legal awareness at all and a junior solicitor with a complete misunderstanding of how pupillage works and a grudge against Oxbridge doesn't constitute much of a damning majority verdict. I appreciate your attempts to volunteer your advice, but until this advice is even remotely accurate I would appreciate it if you and others would either volunteer advice on the subject raised in the OP or alternatively keep your silence altogether.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Then you demonstrate an astonishingly poor understanding of your bag.



    Could you be specific about what exactly these 'assumptions' are?



    That is nonsense. An Oxbridge degree is not worth less professionally when it is someone's second degree.



    This is also largely nonsense. Commercial awareness is important, but contacts mean precisely nothing for the Bar (I have family members and family friends at the Bar already, however, and this wouldn't be an issue if it were the case). Nor does doing mini-pupillages, aside from meeting a base standard of experience. There is very little 'experience' that the Bar offers before pupillage, and certainly nothing that will exceptionally advance an application. What they offer is for the benefit of personal insight in prospective candidates rather than meat to build up an application. It is painfully obvious that you are on the solicitor route by how wrong your understanding is of what matters in a pupillage application.

    I have it from the horse's mouth that the Bar cares overwhelmingly for your acadmic profile - that is almost entirely what will get you interviews for pupillage. After this point it is a matter of acing interviews and generally being an interesting human being - one of these barriaters recounted how a recent pupil had done kick-boxing in her spare time, and that this tidbit had caught his eye on the pupillage committee - though scholarships from Inns and mooting competitions also play a part. Actual work experience in the field is essentially irrelevant beyond personal development and the near compulsory mini-pupillage and shadowing of judges; contacts mean nothing and having been the president of your uni accommodation's JCR similarly counts for nil. The academic profile and interview is what really matters.

    I am essentially playing devil's advocate; as is quite obvious, my planning to do a second undergraduate degree at Oxbridge for the benefit of my academic profile by no means indicates that I am not doing and do not intend to do any of the things you have prematurely accused me of neglecting. Motes and beams, as far as making assumptions goes. But your understanding of priorities in gaining pupillage remains lamentable and all the more so for how arrogantly it is displayed.



    Clearly your keen forensic mind has not clocked that this thread was not intended as a broadcasting station for my future career plans.



    Correct. This is a policy I have been advised to adopt by commercial London barristers, who have themselves either benefited from it personally or rewarded those that have followed it with a pupillage. It's an intelligent route and I don't know why you are so strangely hostile towards it. The country is flooded with law grads with unexceptional scores from unexceptional universities, large numbers of them herding towards the pupillage portal. It is quite plain that in order to stand out in a selection process which massively weights academics, superior universities and/or degree classifications are basically essential for pupillage these days, and doing law at a bog standard RG is basically the worst possible way of attempting to achieve this. If you doubt this I suggest you ask for a second opinion from nulli tertius or someone similarly knowledgeable.





    Since being an attractive candidate for pupillage depends almost entirely upon the strength of your academic profile, this is obviously not the case.



    I'm not naive at all, you are misinformed. A few rambunctious keyboard warriors with no legal awareness at all and a junior solicitor with a complete misunderstanding of how pupillage works and a grudge against Oxbridge doesn't constitute much of a damning majority verdict. I appreciate your attempts to volunteer your advice, but until this advice is even remotely accurate I would appreciate it if you and others would either volunteer advice on the subject raised in the OP or alternatively keep your silence altogether.
    Well if we're playing who knows who I also know people at the bar. One is my best friend from school with a stunning academic profile from GCSE onwards, Oxford and the BPTC at BPP in London, the other likewise but did English Literature at York and the GDL at Northumbria and was sponsored to do the BPTC at BPP and another who is a client who did law at Durham. This last one was the barrister on the trial I worked on and I've tutored his daughter and son for a number of years now. I was considering the bar at the time when I was working and I asked him about it as he actually handles pupillage for his firm. I was wondering if it was worth going for and if it was true about the Oxbridge degree as currency.

    He said something along the lines of the following which forms the basis to advice that I would give anyone considering law at university in the first place:

    It doesn't actually matter how consistent or inconsistent your academic record is if you meet the minimum requirements or where you've been for that matter, to some extent at least. What really matters is that you have the skills for the job and you have the achievements to back them up. The idea of Oxbridge as currency is actually misleading. The people who get pupillage tend to come from Oxbridge but not exactly because they went to Oxbridge. Rather, they get the pupillage because in order to have got there in the first place they distinguished themselves first as school leavers and then kept on distinguishing themselves once they were there. They tend to have entered major competitions in mooting, public speaking etc., gained a lot of experience in the area of law in which they hoped to specialise in through volunteering etc., written articles and so forth. Those people tend to be accepted by Oxbridge but it's not the degree itself that makes the difference. It's the person. He agrees (I asked him to have a look at this just now) that there are better things that a person could spend a year of their life doing than doing another degree at Oxford or Cambridge that would impress chambers more. From a practical standpoint, he also pointed out that there are better things that you could drop £30k on than an Oxbridge degree, especially considering that a great many Oxford and Cambridge law graduates every year find themselves without either a training contract or a pupillage to look forward to. As a snide aside, he also agreed with me that it sounds like you don't think you can be a good enough law graduate from elsewhere and that you're banking on Oxbridge to make up the deficit.

    Believe it or not, there are people out there with experience and knowledge who know what they're talking about. I would listen to them.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I won't be persuaded by advice that is poor and factually incorrect, no, flattering as your constant shadowing is becoming. As above.
    Have fun failing lol, as is being proved more and more as the thread progresses.

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    Your profile says you're 21, so you'll finish your degree aged 24, another degree takes you to age 27. You do realise there are post graduate exams you have to take before qualifying as a solicitor/barrister/lawyer


    Have you really thought this through?
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    Why would you want two degrees?
 
 
 
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