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Alex Salmond - "Scotland would win the YES vote if referendum held this week" ? watch

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    (Original post by The Owl of Minerva)
    In the case of Scotland, yes. Because despite the union, Scotland is legally a country in its own right with its own distinct sense of history and culture.
    So what happens when one Scottish city votes in a Labour MP, or has a majority Labour council, for instance? Do they then go back to the union? Do they get independence from independence?

    And I don't buy the distinct culture part as a viable reason. Lots of England is culturally distinct from other parts. I'm from York and live in Manchester. Both are very different to each other and different again to London. Does everything go independent? Do we go back to the days of multiple city states?
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    Yes, they probz would.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    So what happens when one Scottish city votes in a Labour MP, or has a majority Labour council, for instance? Do they then go back to the union? Do they get independence from independence?

    And I don't buy the distinct culture part as a viable reason. Lots of England is culturally distinct from other parts. I'm from York and live in Manchester. Both are very different to each other and different again to London. Does everything go independent? Do we go back to the days of multiple city states?
    Exactly.


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    The SNP have only ever had one policy, and a year ago the majority of voters said they don't agree with it. For the SNP to be saying, in effect, 'you, the majority are wrong, so we'll give the country another go at getting the answer we want' shows their contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with them.

    Their oil figures were laughably over-optimistic while their policies on policing, health and education are unravelling, so they're doing the only thing they know how to do, which is make some noise over independence.

    I doubt whether the UK government will agree to another referendum so soon, and without another Edinburgh Agreement Scotland will have to declare independence unilaterally, something no western country has done in recent history. The risks and uncertainties then would be much greater than they would have been following a yes vote last year.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    The SNP have only ever had one policy, and a year ago the majority of voters said they don't agree with it. For the SNP to be saying, in effect, 'you, the majority are wrong, so we'll give the country another go at getting the answer we want' shows their contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with them.

    Their oil figures were laughably over-optimistic while their policies on policing, health and education are unravelling, so they're doing the only thing they know how to do, which is make some noise over independence.

    I doubt whether the UK government will agree to another referendum so soon, and without another Edinburgh Agreement Scotland will have to declare independence unilaterally, something no western country has done in recent history. The risks and uncertainties then would be much greater than they would have been following a yes vote last year.
    The SNP are supposed to be about governing for everyone in Scotland and not just the anti-British brigade. Funny how often they forget that.


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    (Original post by Drewski)
    So what happens when one Scottish city votes in a Labour MP, or has a majority Labour council, for instance? Do they then go back to the union? Do they get independence from independence?

    And I don't buy the distinct culture part as a viable reason. Lots of England is culturally distinct from other parts. I'm from York and live in Manchester. Both are very different to each other and different again to London. Does everything go independent? Do we go back to the days of multiple city states?
    We have to work in terms of majorities. Majority of Scotland share little to zero culture or history with the UK to be proud of. This is one piece of the argument. There is no reason for us to be joined with one another. We haven't got a proud Union.

    Secondly our politics is very different. Look at all major polls on key political issues. Where leaving the EU is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where controlling immigration is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where capitalism is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where keeping trident is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where reducing the welfare budget is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, on and on...

    Most importantly though is on both side of the border we just have a distaste towards one another. We love our monarch while they hate it. I don't know a single person in England (and I live in London so a lot of people) who wants to keep the Scottish. This is like a relationship which is not working. We need a divorce with Scotland. Neither of us generally want to be together.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The SNP are supposed to be about governing for everyone in Scotland and not just the anti-British brigade. Funny how often they forget that.


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    Hopefully the SNP get their second referendum and the Scottish cowards who voted to stay in the UK grow some balls. Project fear was a farce.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    We have to work in terms of majorities

    blah blah blah

    We need a divorce with Scotland. Neither of us generally want to be together.
    Well, apart from the 2,001,926 people who voted to stay.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    Well, apart from the 2,001,926 people who voted to stay.
    Yes but many have already admitted it was the fear of the economic foundations of Scotland collapsing. Project fear was exposed and judging by all polls now and the election, independence is favoured by the majority.

    I am curious why you want to stay with them. Are you Scottish by any chance? If not what reason is there to remain with these people?
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    (Original post by The Owl of Minerva)
    Scotland is legally a country in its own right
    No. Scotland is a part of a country that has its own legal system and which has some devolved powers (as does Wales. It gave up being a nation state in 1707, as did England.

    It is no more a country than Yorkshire, the Lake District and London are.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    I don't know a single person in England (and I live in London so a lot of people) who wants to keep the Scottish.
    As an Englishman - a northerner - I know more people who'd prefer to keep Scotland than London.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    As an Englishman - a northerner - I know more people who'd prefer to keep Scotland than London.
    I take your failure to address my other points as accepting they are true. The fact is this Union is not working and for the sake of the UK and its prosperity Scotland must leave. Thank god the nationalist movement is growing up there. Hopefully the EU referendum will trigger another Scottish referendum.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    I think we should offer another referendum soon but with the proviso that if they go independent there is a subsequent referendum after 2 years; 5 years and 10 years of an independent Scotland where the Scots are asked if they want to return to being part of the UK.
    That would be a terrible move. If they ever go it must be for ever. It will cost enormous amounts of money to effect a divorce, and enormous amounts to come back. Speaking as a taxpayer, I only want a maximum of one enormous sum at risk and the uncertainty inherent in such a stipulation could cripple the economy of the UK.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    I take your failure to address my other points as accepting they are true. The fact is this Union is not working and for the sake of the UK and its prosperity Scotland must leave. Thank god the nationalist movement is growing up there. Hopefully the EU referendum will trigger another Scottish referendum.
    Is it a fact?

    It's, at best, a debatable proposition. It's lasted for 300+ years, so I don't think the last ~10 are really going to have changed much in the grand scheme of things.

    Our politics are not that different. Look at the voting patterns of any of the major cities outside London and you'll see that the vast majority of them are closer to Scottish views than London views.

    You are falling for the pathetic old rhetoric of London=England. That is just as bad as the Scottish nats.

    There is greater reason for London to be independent from everywhere else than there is Scotland to be independent from England.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Is it a fact?

    It's, at best, a debatable proposition. It's lasted for 300+ years, so I don't think the last ~10 are really going to have changed much in the grand scheme of things.

    Our politics are not that different. Look at the voting patterns of any of the major cities outside London and you'll see that the vast majority of them are closer to Scottish views than London views.

    You are falling for the pathetic old rhetoric of London=England. That is just as bad as the Scottish nats.

    There is greater reason for London to be independent from everywhere else than there is Scotland to be independent from England.
    Tories control most of England while Labour dominate London while holding on to northern heartlands for now, so Scotland have greater affiliation to Tories then? Who knew.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    We have to work in terms of majorities. Majority of Scotland share little to zero culture or history with the UK to be proud of. This is one piece of the argument. There is no reason for us to be joined with one another. We haven't got a proud Union.

    Secondly our politics is very different. Look at all major polls on key political issues. Where leaving the EU is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where controlling immigration is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where capitalism is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where keeping trident is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, where reducing the welfare budget is popular in England it is not so in Scotland, on and on...

    Most importantly though is on both side of the border we just have a distaste towards one another. We love our monarch while they hate it. I don't know a single person in England (and I live in London so a lot of people) who wants to keep the Scottish. This is like a relationship which is not working. We need a divorce with Scotland. Neither of us generally want to be together.
    This is so full of mistakes I don't know where to begin. Do you have any facts to back up your vacuous assertions? Have you even been to Scotland? As an Englishman who lives there I'm telling you that when you take accent and identity away from it there is little difference. For starters Nicola Sturgeon got dog's abuse for wanting to take more refugees from a lot of SNP voters who wanted her to 'put our own people first'. Polls on Trident show a slight majority in favour, and little wonder with the jobs it brings, and social attitude surveys conducted on a regular basis show overall English opinion to only be slightly more conservative than the Scottish.

    On no shared history or culture, Scotland was an integral part of the Empire, Scots fought under the Union Jack against fascism and in other causes too. Culturally our music artists our mutually popular, we watch the same TV and compete together in the Olympics.

    I could go on but you know so little on this topic and it shows with your assertions made based upon opinion and not fact.


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    (Original post by Gears265)
    Tories control most of England while Labour dominate London while holding on to northern heartlands for now, so Scotland have greater affiliation to Tories then? Who knew.
    By area, the Tories may have more, but by population? Check again.
    Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds - that northern powerhouse the gov is on about - solidly Labour. As are many other areas.

    And they're also all mostly anti-London, which is what's really driving the SNP vote.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    By area, the Tories may have more, but by population? Check again.
    Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds - that northern powerhouse the gov is on about - solidly Labour. As are many other areas.

    And they're also all mostly anti-London, which is what's really driving the SNP vote.
    Solidly Labour? Ok, UKIP must be invisible then. And last time I checked Tories had more votes than Labour so I fail to see where population comes into it. There are countless Labour constituencies where UKIP came second and Tories third (plus vice versa). What was interesting is in many of these if you add the votes of UKIP to Tories they surpass the total votes of Labour. Labour are not so in touch with the North as you like to put it.

    And it is common knowledge areas of higher immigration will vote Labour so don't brag about importing voters as anyone can do that.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    Yes but many have already admitted it was the fear of the economic foundations of Scotland collapsing. Project fear was exposed and judging by all polls now and the election, independence is favoured by the majority.

    I am curious why you want to stay with them. Are you Scottish by any chance? If not what reason is there to remain with these people?
    Polls can say anything they like, doesn't make it a reality. They were wrong before the referendum. You cannot simply say that "independence is favoured by the majority".

    I work in the oil and gas industry in Aberdeen, and I moved up here from Kent. This isn't about some misguided nationalist pride, though I am half Scottish. Amongst the people I've spoken to, I haven't come across a single person who has a good thing to say about Salmond/Sturgeon/the SNP/independence, because of the enormous detrimental effect they would have on our jobs, the industry and the country's future.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    Solidly Labour? Ok, UKIP must be invisible then. And last time I checked Tories had more votes than Labour so I fail to see where population comes into it. There are countless Labour constituencies where UKIP came second and Tories third (plus vice versa). What was interesting is in many of these if you add the votes of UKIP to Tories they surpass the total votes of Labour. Labour are not so in touch with the North as you like to put it.

    And it is common knowledge areas of higher immigration will vote Labour so don't brag about importing voters as anyone can do that.
    They are invisible in parliamentary terms.

    Tories have mps, yes. But their heartlands ate mostly large rural areas, populated by 3 guys and a sheep. I know, I'm from one.
 
 
 
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