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    Also, I am amused to learn that much of the Common Security and Defence Policy of the EU was until a few years ago a thoroughly NATO concern, until it was transferred to the EU - it's just had a change of governing institution. And yet somehow it's the end of the world!
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    (Original post by gladders)
    You're moving the goalposts
    .
    Not at all, what I am saying is that the Treaties are crystal clear. The EU Council takes the decisions on defence and foreign policy and if member states have a problem in defence or foreign they must inform the Council so that it can decide.

    The text is straightforward, para. 1 says the council decides and para 3 says that the Council must be informed so that it can decide.


    Article 26(1):"1. The European Council shall identify the Union’s strategic interests, determine the objectives of and define general guidelines for the common foreign and security policy, including for matters with defence implications. It shall adopt the necessary decisions."

    "3.. Whenever there is any plan to adopt a national position or take national action pursuant to a decision as referred to in paragraph 1, information shall be provided by the Member State concerned in time to allow, if necessary, for prior consultations within the Council. The obligation to provide prior information shall not apply to measures which are merely a national transposition of Council decisions."
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Also, I am amused to learn that much of the Common Security and Defence Policy of the EU was until a few years ago a thoroughly NATO concern, until it was transferred to the EU - it's just had a change of governing institution. And yet somehow it's the end of the world!
    Not all foreign policy was a NATO concern and NATO could not and cannot veto the foreign policy and defence policies of its members. The EU is the European Union , an entirely different entity from NATO (and from the EEC). It explicitly has authority on foreign and defence policy (since 1st Nov 2014).

    The UK is definitely being terminated because most politicians in the 3 main parties believe that the voters understand this is happening and fully support it. I don't think that most people in the UK can even believe that their politicians would terminate the UK so are supporting its termination whilst cheerily thinking that nothing could be happening - its bizarre.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Not at all, what I am saying is that the Treaties are crystal clear. The EU Council takes the decisions on defence and foreign policy and if member states have a problem in defence or foreign they must inform the Council so that it can decide.

    The text is straightforward, para. 1 says the council decides and para 3 says that the Council must be informed so that it can decide.


    Article 26(1):"1. The European Council shall identify the Union’s strategic interests, determine the objectives of and define general guidelines for the common foreign and security policy, including for matters with defence implications. It shall adopt the necessary decisions."

    "3.. Whenever there is any plan to adopt a national position or take national action pursuant to a decision as referred to in paragraph 1, information shall be provided by the Member State concerned in time to allow, if necessary, for prior consultations within the Council. The obligation to provide prior information shall not apply to measures which are merely a national transposition of Council decisions."
    All you're doing is regurgitating what you quoted before. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sorry. The practice of the Council is there for everyone to see - it's a forum for hammering out common positions among EU Member States to strengthen their collective voice. There's nothing in that text there that can be interpreted as the Council being a directive body, and it is not anything like one in practice either.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    All you're doing is regurgitating what you quoted before. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sorry. The practice of the Council is there for everyone to see - it's a forum for hammering out common positions among EU Member States to strengthen their collective voice. There's nothing in that text there that can be interpreted as the Council being a directive body, and it is not anything like one in practice either.
    The positions are majority (QMV), not "collective" decisions. Paragraph 1 says that what you call a common position is a "decision" made by Council, not simply a "collective" voice. The Council decides the policies.

    Your version: The States are independent and the Council strengthens their collective voice.

    My version: the EU Council will identify the security and foreign policy. It will make the necessary decisions. The member states will comply with these decisions.

    The actual wording in the Treaties:
    Article (26) "1. The European Council shall identify the Union’s strategic interests, determine the objectives of and define general guidelines for the common foreign and security policy, including for matters with defence implications. It shall adopt the necessary decisions."

    Article 24(3): " The Member States shall support the Union’s external and security policy actively and unreservedly in a spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity and shall comply with the Union’s action in this area."

    Both versions are different from "The UK is an independent, sovereign country that has its own security and foreign relations policies". Which is the truly independent position.

    Your comment on the EU Council as a directive body: "it is not anything like one in practice" is premature. The EU Council has only had this directive power since November 2014. Like you, it wants us all to believe that it is harmless so will not flex its muscles fully until after the UK Referendum on membership. The Treaties are clear however, it does have directive power.

    There is considerable pressure building in the EU Parliament for a strong executive for the EU. (Spinelli Group and others). If the UK terminates itself this pressure will be virtually unstoppable.
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    Take your tin hat home, dude.
 
 
 
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