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Meritocracy vs Positive Discrimination watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So should we also stop tackling global warming, or change tact and tackle it by polluting even more heavily, because our methods haven't yet completely stopped it and rolled back the clock? How about in the battle against world poverty stop giving out aid and demand that the countries we pay aid to start paying us because there is still poverty in the world? Or how about we engage in nuclear war because clearly not doing so is not leading to world peace?
    some of the things you mentioned, such as aid, are actually done for the West's benefit more than anything else. The amount of bull**** going on between Africa and the west is so much and all aid does is pacify the issue

    When it comes to things like race the reason society handles it poorly because it wants to keep the status quo. With all the initiatives and schemes, so long as this society remains racist we will not see the change in jobs and professions needed to make society actually be equal
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    1) if you're saying that BME individuals in society can only get anywhere if we spoon feed them good outcomes, as opposed to them having to compete for them like and with everybody else, then you seem to be giving us a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is "BME people are incapable. therefore, let's prove they're not incapable by making them look incapable". if they cant play by common standards then they deserve what they're given

    2) positive discrimination isn't only, as I've highlighted above, unfair to BMEs (because it robs them of their dignity and rational-status), but it is also unfair to non-BMEs, because they will have to play by a harder pallet of rules with absolutely no logical rationale other than "making them work harder for the same result with result in a society where BMEs are better off" - I don't care who is better off - I don't care if non-BMEs are worse off, even - if you can't climb the ladder, don't expect yourself to *deserve* to get up it. you don't deserve to get up it at all - and if you don't end up getting up it, even if you played by the same rules as everyone else, then you are exactly where you ought to be - at the bottom of the ladder.

    3) isn't it dishonest to give BMEs a fast-lane ticket in society if, without it, they'd never end up where the government is purporting them to be? I don't think giving society a lie is going to make people feel better about BME individuals - in fact, I think it's going to make them feel worse about them, especially given point number 2

    4) if race doesn't matter in society, what would be the point of this? if race *does* matter and that it is something people should feel passionately about, even though, for the last 100+ years we've had free education for all people and race doesn't make somebody unfairly treated in terms of their effort alone, then this will favour white people, surely? what would be stopping BMEs from succeeding if this is a racial argument in a context of fair meritocracy in the education system? if we mak this ethnocentric, then it will make white people look more capable/more successful from their own efforts, or else, BMEs are precisely the opposite of these things. solution: race doesn't matter. we're all equal under the law. so we shouldn't lie to ourselves by treating some "more equal than others"
    I do believe people misunderstand my means of positive discrimination

    Where the candidates going for a job have differences that are trifling (so the white individual may have one or two months experience more than the black individual) then, assuming they done equally well at interview, the black individual should be chosen in some cases in order to get more black people in those positions to make a difference in their communities, to make businesses more representative, to check racist practices,bring different points of views to business culture. If the white individual is massively superior then the job should go to him, but the white individual is likely to always be massively superior, so when a situation arises where a black individual is slightly lacking in comparison to his white counterpart why not give it to him since the system favours the white individual anyway and he is unlikely to find as much difficulty finding another job

    What some white people fail to realize is that the system benefits them in ways they do not recognise because of their skin colour. Whether it be police leniency, social trust, better familial connections/nepotism, Parents in Higher/further education, more investment in their communities. These things gives white a step up on other black candidates, which is why i advocate PD in some situations

    Unfortunately Race does matter. im not saying PD will solve that, but it could help society become more equal and give more economic/social power to BME communities
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    some of the things you mentioned, such as aid, are actually done for the West's benefit more than anything else. The amount of bull**** going on between Africa and the west is so much and all aid does is pacify the issue

    When it comes to things like race the reason society handles it poorly because it wants to keep the status quo. With all the initiatives and schemes, so long as this society remains racist we will not see the change in jobs and professions needed to make society actually be equal
    I don't think society as a whole is racist. There are racist individuals, but under a meritocracy everyone can reach the top. Race is not the main factor in societal inequalities, it is class. You cannot tell me that a middle class BME is disadvantaged compared to a white from an impoverished area. If you said that where I'm from, you'd last two minutes.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    I find affirmative action to be a lazy short term fix to the long term problem of prejudice.

    Most of the time Blacks & Ethnic Minorities scream the racism card when things don't go their way. The problem with this is they automatically distance themselves from uniting with people who suffer from other forms of prejudice.

    Disablism, Religious Hatred, Misogyny etc.

    The root causes of prejudice must be tackled rather than handing out I-WIN entitlements to under represented minorities of any sort.

    You could jump up and down about the young BME employment rate but there are other groups which share similar statistical values. Disabled people = 54% unemployment rate etc.

    I would love to see the day that a unqualified Black man is given a job over a qualified White disabled man in a wheel chair on the basis that White men contributed towards slavery. Oh wait a minute this happens in the USA everyday.
    The reason BMEs dont automatically unite with others suffering prejudice is because you cannot always conflate the issues of Black people and say feminist issues. A person who is disabled may face discrimination and prejudice but will face a different sort than to black people and the feelings felt may be different over a long period of time.

    Feminism in it's problems pales in comparison to the seriousness of racism.

    Also Bringing up the race card is racist.
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    (Original post by Bjornhattan)
    I don't think society as a whole is racist. There are racist individuals, but under a meritocracy everyone can reach the top. Race is not the main factor in societal inequalities, it is class. You cannot tell me that a middle class BME is disadvantaged compared to a white from an impoverished area. If you said that where I'm from, you'd last two minutes.
    You're wrong

    Plus im not saying Blacks can't make it. im saying the system has been made in a way to disadvantage statistically. in a meritocratic society blacks would be at the top more because most people in society want to do well. Now dont get me wrong person accountability must be held but systemic reason blacks havent done as well is because of the views of white people eg white flight, taking the money out of BME communites and putting them a step down, thus making meritocracy that much harder for them .
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    You're wrong

    Plus im not saying Blacks can't make it. im saying the system has been made in a way to disadvantage statistically. in a meritocratic society blacks would be at the top more because most people in society want to do well. Now dont get me wrong person accountability must be held but systemic reason blacks havent done as well is because of the views of white people eg white flight, taking the money out of BME communites and putting them a step down, thus making meritocracy that much harder for them .
    I get the feeling that our differences in opinion are down to differing experiences. I live in an area that is 20% BME in a town that is 4% BME. We all have it rough where I live. You do have to work very hard. But any forms of positive discrimination are going to exclude people like me at the expense of middle class BME people. Some of these will have the belief that you don't have to work hard, you just get success given. Besides, there hasn't really been time for differences to fully settle out. Within a few decades these problems will decline massively.
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    (Original post by Bjornhattan)
    I get the feeling that our differences in opinion are down to differing experiences. I live in an area that is 20% BME in a town that is 4% BME. We all have it rough where I live. You do have to work very hard. But any forms of positive discrimination are going to exclude people like me at the expense of middle class BME people. Some of these will have the belief that you don't have to work hard, you just get success given. Besides, there hasn't really been time for differences to fully settle out. Within a few decades these problems will decline massively.
    Unlikely.

    white privilege works in way that even if you're in a lower social class than a black person, you are still more likely to have an easier time at life than blacks in certain aspects. the black person may have more money than you, but that black person probably cant go to russia without being spat on/cursed/attacked, may be targeted by police, may have to jump extra hurdles to get a job, may have to abandon their heritage to be accepted by their peers and it goes on and on. so yes they are economically better than you, but you also have access leverage which they do not
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    Unlikely.

    white privilege works in way that even if you're in a lower social class than a black person, you are still more likely to have an easier time at life than blacks in certain aspects. the black person may have more money than you, but that black person probably cant go to russia without being spat on/cursed/attacked, may be targeted by police, may have to jump extra hurdles to get a job, may have to abandon their heritage to be accepted by their peers and it goes on and on. so yes they are economically better than you, but you also have access leverage which they do not
    Not really. Let's go through these.

    I'd quite like to go to Russia and not get thrown in jail just for who I am.
    I've been targeted by police for being poor.
    I am constantly insulted in the street and my mother has been robbed, for being white.

    Don't try to rank privilege. It never ends well.

    In theory, positive discrimination is probably a good idea. But you should only use it as a tie breaker, and you should never call it discrimination, instead give it a name based on this idea of a tie breaker. And also, employers should be able to choose whether to use this or not. If they decide to use it, then they could perhaps get a certificate of some kind.

    I had only been vehemently opposed because I thought you meant a quota system. Which is completely wrong in my eyes.
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all
    Nice grammar. Also it's BAME, and I do not agree with your idea of discrimination, white people are discriminated against enough.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Nice grammar. Also it's BAME, and I do not agree with your idea of discrimination, white people are discriminated against enough.
    I'm curious as to what examples you would give for discrimination against white people, with the exception of these "positive discrimination" schemes, and other initiatives to promote minority candidates above white people (such as fast track management programmes).
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    Are you a female? Transgender? Black? Brown? Foreign? Young? Old? Gay?

    Then look no further here is the culprit for anything wrong in your life the 25 to 55 year old white male!

    It doesn't matter what class they come from, how hard they work, their personality or indeed anything else they are all privileged, racist, xenophobic etc etc and everything is their fault!

    /thread

    Signed

    The white 31 year old middle class male


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    (Original post by Bjornhattan)
    I'm curious as to what examples you would give for discrimination against white people, with the exception of these "positive discrimination" schemes, and other initiatives to promote minority candidates above white people (such as fast track management programmes).
    why the exception of them? They are extremely racist and unacceptable. A survey of 15,000 people- ordered by Hazel Blears (ex.communities secretary) concluded that seven percent of whites believed they had failed to win a promotion because of their race. 29% of white people expect to be treated worse than other races by key public services. My mother, who works in the NHS, has been told by her boss to treat BAME patients with extra care, and the majority of her patients are BAME (she is involved in a support from home scheme). Three percent of whites said they had been rejected a job purely because of their race (or because the company wants to employ more BAME staff). Whites also feel less able than other ethnic groups to influence local decisions. 41% of black African's feel they have a say in decisions, compared to just 19% of whites. Whites identified council housing departments as the most racist institutes to discriminate against whites.
    Black racism hides behind victim hood.


    found this interesting. http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-w...inated-against
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    im not talking about put an English grad black student over a maths white student for a job as an analyst. im talking about situations where the black student and white student have similar work experience backgrounds, the white candidate is slightly better, but you choose the black candidate in order to sort out this mess that the government has not helped. positive discrimination is an issue of public policy and should only arise in places where representation is seriously low and where the difference between the black and white candidate is trifling
    Deciding which of two candidates to give a job to based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin is moronic.

    Giving the job to the less qualified candidate based on the colour of their skin is going full retard.

    Basing a professional decision on bull**** "social" factors isn't very professional. Nor is it particularly practical or morally righteous. Which is why meritocracy is the way forward; the best person for the job getting the job is the way it should be.

    As other people have said, positive discrimination is still discrimination.
    If not giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin is racist, then how is giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin not racist? The deciding factor is the same, the only difference is the outcome.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    Deciding which of two candidates to give a job to based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin is moronic.

    Giving the job to the less qualified candidate based on the colour of their skin is going full retard.

    Basing a professional decision on bull**** "social" factors isn't very professional. Nor is it particularly practical or morally righteous. Which is why meritocracy is the way forward; the best person for the job getting the job is the way it should be.

    As other people have said, positive discrimination is still discrimination.
    If not giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin is racist, then how is giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin not racist? The deciding factor is the same, the only difference is the outcome.
    im not saying do PD forever, im saying do it in certain situations to better the situation of those that are underprivileged

    honestly people are acting like Britain didnt get its wealth from stealing from other countries, thus forcing those countries's inhabitants to relocate here
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Nice grammar. Also it's BAME, and I do not agree with your idea of discrimination, white people are discriminated against enough.
    Thanks

    White people may be discriminated but its not systematic.
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    Could you please give me an exampleof a law in force today that proves systematic discrimination? I do not see any such laws.

    I accept there are employers who will discriminate, but this will go both ways.

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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    im not saying do PD forever, im saying do it in certain situations to better the situation of those that are underprivileged
    And I'm saying it's idiotic. Who decides who's underprivileged? Is it based purely on race? In which case, wouldn't a white working class citizen be underprivileged compared to a black middle class citizen (though admittedly that takes class and race into account, the point remains the same)?

    There are too many problems with it, and the above is only the start.

    honestly people are acting like Britain didnt get its wealth from stealing from other countries, thus forcing those countries's inhabitants to relocate here
    Oh look, it's our old friend, the reparations argument.

    Irrelevant.
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    (Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
    The reason BMEs dont automatically unite with others suffering prejudice is because you cannot always conflate the issues of Black people and say feminist issues. A person who is disabled may face discrimination and prejudice but will face a different sort than to black people and the feelings felt may be different over a long period of time.

    Feminism in it's problems pales in comparison to the seriousness of racism.

    Also Bringing up the race card is racist.
    Putting prejudice against BME on a pedestal is part of your problem. There is no form of prejudice which is superior to another. Prejudice is all the same and as of result every victim of prejudice suffers in 1 way or another by some form of inequality.

    And BME have been put on a pedestal because it wasn't long ago when hatred laws against Gays, Muslims and the Disabled didn't exist. By BMEs constantly taking the lime light it has taken many years for other groups to get their voices heard. Racial hatred laws where the 1st of their kind and BME need to stop the me me me victim-hood and realize the feelings & inequalities they have as a result of prejudice are the same for everyone else suffering from some form of injustice.

    We are all human and just because racism tends to receive most of the spot light doesn't mean it is the most popular hate crime.

    And stop the BME supremacy in reparations entitlement. If anyone should get reparations it should be the poor & disabled who have had to slave away in work house conditions over thousands of years just to survive. That if you want to measure the level of usury and reparations for usury.

    Your ignorance makes me sick.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Poorer education than who?
    Greater likelihood of imprisonment...which is irrelevant if you stay within the confines of the law
    less amenities, not quite sure what the relevance is here, the only vaguely relevant definition is ultimately down to you, if you want to be a **** you can't really blame society, at least not in the vast majority of cases
    less structured households, what do you even mean by this?

    And why is it that people insist on adding the B to BME/BEM? Are negroids somehow more important than all other "minorities"?
    Hi Enoch
 
 
 
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