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Russian plane crash - evidence pointing to bomb or missile - 224 dead watch

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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Lots of Iraqi on Iraqi violence then. It would coalition forces who asked the Iraqi population to start creating medieval sectarian murder.

    It says a lot about a country that as soon as you remove a blood thirsty dictator, the first thing the locals do is start killing each other.
    That statistic was from involvement of foreign forces. Not sectarian violence.
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    That statistic was from involvement of foreign forces. Not sectarian violence.
    Bull ****.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Bull ****.
    Yeah right. I'm sure you've STILL got some studying to do.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    BBC had it saying a flash and no heat trail towards the impact, so no ground to air missile. Either on-board explosive or catastrophic (explosive) engine failure. If it was a bomb then that's serious news, I'd have thought Egypt would have reasonably tight airport security though?
    Well you'd think britain had good airport security, but newspaper reporters seem to be able to sneak replica bombs into aircraft at UK airports at will. Just cos they've got a lot of 'security theatre' going on where the passengers can see it doesn't mean there isn't a problem elsewhere.
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    (Original post by Joinedup)
    Well you'd think britain had good airport security, but newspaper reporters seem to be able to sneak replica bombs into aircraft at UK airports at will. Just cos they've got a lot of 'security theatre' going on where the passengers can see it doesn't mean there isn't a problem elsewhere.
    Testing security on an official bases, bit like a supermarket mystery shopper, but be a really interesting career. I do wonder myself sometimes that surely if a terrorist was really committed, they could probably down a plane. I mean some countries with quite basic airports don't seem to do full body scanners just X-ray.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Testing security on an official bases, bit like a supermarket mystery shopper, but be a really interesting career. I do wonder myself sometimes that surely if a terrorist was really committed, they could probably down a plane. I mean some countries with quite basic airports don't seem to do full body scanners just X-ray.
    I mean cleaners, baggage handlers etc there's a lot of 'invisible' workers at an airport who get the opportunity to put something that shouldn't be there on board.

    every so often a frozen corpse drops out of a planes landing gear when it comes in to land... it's a stowaway attempting to emigrate - but what are those guys even doing getting anywhere near a plane on the ground in the first place? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19562101
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    Sounds like it's still unknown what brought it down so far. We will have to wait and see what the various reports say once they've analysed the debris and the black box.
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    (Original post by Joinedup)
    I mean cleaners, baggage handlers etc there's a lot of 'invisible' workers at an airport who get the opportunity to put something that shouldn't be there on board.

    every so often a frozen corpse drops out of a planes landing gear when it comes in to land... it's a stowaway attempting to emigrate - but what are those guys even doing getting anywhere near a plane on the ground in the first place? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19562101
    Most slip down on things like actually building a bomb. Others fail because the cell is too big and liable to penetration. Few terrorist attacks are stopped by security but before that through intelligence work.

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    Tests have revealed no explosive residue on victims bodies.

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Tests have revealed no explosive residue on victims bodies.

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    Not to be over-sceptical, but I wonder how much we can trust reports from Russia on this kind of thing. It would be better if it was independent experts. Putin may have reasons to not want to admit (for example) that his policies in Syria have immediately led to 200+ civilian Russians dying. I'm not saying that is what's going on, but given recent history, I'm not sure we can trust explanations from Moscow.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Not to be over-sceptical, but I wonder how much we can trust reports from Russia on this kind of thing. It would be better if it was independent experts. Putin may have reasons to not want to admit (for example) that his policies in Syria have immediately led to 200+ civilian Russians dying. I'm not saying that is what's going on, but given recent history, I'm not sure we can trust explanations from Moscow.
    Agreed, though I believe the Irish authorities are involved, as the plane was Irish registered (a lot of Russian airliners are, Transaero has a lot for example).

    Having said that, I don't think much evidence points to a bomb over catastrophic structural failure, which often also leads to an in-flight breakup. There was a clean break between the fuselage and the aft pressure bulkhead, which landed approximately 5 miles away from the majority of the rest of the wreckage. The aircraft had a tailstrike in 2001. Though it was allegedly repaired, the repairs carried out prior to JA123 and CI611 were certified as 'proper' and it turned out they very much weren't properly done. Boeing then significantly changed its repair logging policy. This aircraft was an Airbus.

    It is very easy to tell early on if a fire or significant amount of heat was generated, and there has been no sign as of yet. There also are two simple ways to check for the involvement of explosives: residue, and examining the wreck for tell-tale signs of an explosion, such as outward curving of wreckage pieces. I think we'd have known by now tbh.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Not to be over-sceptical, but I wonder how much we can trust reports from Russia on this kind of thing. It would be better if it was independent experts. Putin may have reasons to not want to admit (for example) that his policies in Syria have immediately led to 200+ civilian Russians dying. I'm not saying that is what's going on, but given recent history, I'm not sure we can trust explanations from Moscow.
    I have some faith given that the French will be involved through the Airbus connection. The Egyptian findings won't be worth the papyrus its printed on, they've been known to fabricate air crash investigations before (EgyptAir Flight 990). So I think you are right to be sceptical but given the number of different nations involved and how easy it is to prove a bomb I think we can have some trust if terrorism is ruled out.

    Plus I'm not convinced if ISIS could smuggle a bomb into Sharm they would target the Russians. They aren't being hit that hard by the Russians and Sharm airport would be filled with European targets, I'd of thought a BA plane would have a much bigger impact internationally.
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    It's funny. In the west it takes months of painstaking analysis and theory to ascertain what took down a plane along with the chian of events leading up to it. Every detail of the plane's construction, design, maintinance life, wreckage and even what the pilot ate the day before is closely scrutinised.

    In Russia it takes two days, the first it's mechanical failure and the next it's a bomb.

    Colour me unconvinced.
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    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    It's funny. In the west it takes months of painstaking analysis and theory to ascertain what took down a plane along with the chian of events leading up to it. Every detail of the plane's construction, design, maintinance life, wreckage and even what the pilot ate the day before is closely scrutinised.

    In Russia it takes two days, the first it's mechanical failure and the next it's a bomb.

    Colour me unconvinced.
    They do seem to be in a hurry. :rolleyes:

    I think Metrojet's rush to announce that it was an external cause is particularly despicable if they had no conclusive evidence either way, which seems likely. Their motive - diverting the blame from themselves - is obvious, but it points to the cowboy culture being still a key part of Russian business life.

    The government's motives in Russia are also fairly predictable, presumably they do not want this to be ISIS revenge (at least, not yet anyway) as Putin, despite any Russia TV messages to the contrary, has the sole aim of keeping Assad in office at all costs and devil take the consequences. Russia will be happy to carpet Syria with the dead and dying to achieve that worthy goal. After all, there are arms sales at stake!

    So any messages coming out of Russia should be approached with at least a weary scepticism.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    They do seem to be in a hurry. :rolleyes:

    I think Metrojet's rush to announce that it was an external cause is particularly despicable if they had no conclusive evidence either way, which seems likely. Their motive - diverting the blame from themselves - is obvious, but it points to the cowboy culture being still a key part of Russian business life.

    The government's motives in Russia are also fairly predictable, presumably they do not want this to be ISIS revenge (at least, not yet anyway) as Putin, despite any Russia TV messages to the contrary, has the sole aim of keeping Assad in office at all costs and devil take the consequences. Russia will be happy to carpet Syria with the dead and dying to achieve that worthy goal. After all, there are arms sales at stake!

    So any messages coming out of Russia should be approached with at least a weary scepticism.
    That's counter intuitive though. Russia admitting it was an ISIS bomb gives them greater latitude to go into Syria, not less.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    I have some faith given that the French will be involved through the Airbus connection. The Egyptian findings won't be worth the papyrus its printed on, they've been known to fabricate air crash investigations before (EgyptAir Flight 990). So I think you are right to be sceptical but given the number of different nations involved and how easy it is to prove a bomb I think we can have some trust if terrorism is ruled out.

    Plus I'm not convinced if ISIS could smuggle a bomb into Sharm they would target the Russians. They aren't being hit that hard by the Russians and Sharm airport would be filled with European targets, I'd of thought a BA plane would have a much bigger impact internationally.
    Maybe ISIS would want to score a Russian one to show off their prowess and their rage at being even moderately targeted by a new combatant. Allegedly they have hit back at Turkey that way in the recent bombing, although there again, one feels that the trustworthiness of Turkish government statements leave something to be desired.

    Basically I think it's not true that the evidence is pointing towards it being a broken plane being flown by a hack Russian cut price outfit that used to be flown in Syria (yes, really) so probably this will be a story of Russian commercial prowess and the need to avoid a number of airlines, but the backstory of the lack of trust ordinary Russians can have in their own government or companies to be truthful or to act well around it will doubtless continue.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    That's counter intuitive though. Russia admitting it was an ISIS bomb gives them greater latitude to go into Syria, not less.
    Maybe if they dress it up as anti-terror, which they have been trying to do, rather to everyone's scepticism. Putin could have played this as a terror attack justifying massive retaliation (against anti-Assad forces, haha, not the actual perpetrators) or he could want to bury it as bad news for a sceptical home audience who by all accounts are not keen on the war in Syria sucking Russia in.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    That's counter intuitive though. Russia admitting it was an ISIS bomb gives them greater latitude to go into Syria, not less.
    Putin needs his foreign policy to be cost free though. His regime is built upon a strong economy and a strong secure state. The first is being eroded, he cannot afford to lose the second otherwise he has little legitimacy. He has cast the events in Ukraine and Syria as being cost free to Russia. If large numbers of coffins start being flown into Russia Putin may quickly find his own being flown out. He has every incentive to avoid any sort of blow back from his adventures.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)

    I also don't see many French on here but it didn't stop braindead dullards telling us that the Charlie Hebdoe shootings were a false flag. Also, there's like two Americans on here but plenty of other fools talking about 9/11 being an inside job.
    Western Europe is basically the same thing now. France = England.


    Don't let the UKIP bots see me say that.
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    UK government have announced they think a bomb brought it down

    Wowser

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34724604
 
 
 
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