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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Was arguing about this with my younger brother who is Christian. He thinks that basically 'anyone could have said what the Prophet said'. I don't believe so, Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)'s message was unique and free from flaws unlike any other culture that is constrained to tradition and time.
    The delusion is strong in this one.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    You thought the Independent was reputable?

    Check out this beauty.
    lol

    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So like every religion then?

    In primary school we used to get read old testament stories like David and Goliath. Have you seen what is in the Bible? The head teacher funnily enough didn't read us all pro genocide stories, all the stories where female slaves are fair game to be raped. Considering Christianity is part and parcel of 'British values' there is a lot fo hypocrisy in this discussion of whether Islam is compatible with Britain. Even more so when pedophilia gets brought up... It;s like you ahve no knowledge of the history fo this country.

    I'm fairly anti-religion, but in the same way I don't think all Christian or Jews are evil murderers and rapist, I don't think all Muslims are evil child rapists either. Christians can be perfectly civil citizens and so can Muslims.

    My response to the article is make all schools secular.
    Jesus was apparently a better man than Muhammed. He didn't rape, enslave, conquer, or murder anything.

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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Some of these sects aren't really Muslim, like Ahmadiyyahs who believe in another Prophet. Islam isn't responsible for it.
    You know I was referring to the Sunnis and the Shiites.

    Since they disagree on the interpretation of the Koran, one or both of them must be wrong.

    So which of those two is it that are not Moslems?
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    What does Islam say about rape?
    What does Islam say about Kuffars?

    I could go on.

    The thing is that while the bible may say some out of place things as well, no denying it, no one takes it seriously. Looking at the problems Europe and having with Islam (let alone Africa and the Middle East) we can let real world experience tell us how British the values of Muhammad (pbuh) are.

    There are plenty of articles criticising Muhammad for his values, you don't need a rocket scientist to work out that this thread is going to see them come up soon.
    Judaism and Christianity have much deeper problems than Islam. Rape in Islam is only allowed when conquering another country, not that that's fine, but still it's not a major issue in Islamic nations as other issues such as inferiority of women, homosexuals, atheists and so on. As for kuffars, Arabic for heretics or infidels, I am fairly certain that any non-christian belief would have been considered heretic 150 years ago and would have been punishable by death. Islam is no more evil than Christianity and Judaism, the problem with Islam is that Muslim nations are nations plagued with ignorance and instability. One day though all nations will grow out of religion, and we'll have a much better world hopefully. For now, the only way to live in peace with people of other faiths is to know more about their ways and teach them ours. This will help us sympathise with one another, and thus have more feelings towards one another.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    I consider anything the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said as blessed and right.
    So when he said 'whoever changes his Islamic religion kill them' this is blessed and right?
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    What does Islam say about rape?
    What does Islam say about Kuffars?

    I could go on.

    The thing is that while the bible may say some out of place things as well, no denying it, no one takes it seriously. Looking at the problems Europe and having with Islam (let alone Africa and the Middle East) we can let real world experience tell us how British the values of Muhammad (pbuh) are.

    There are plenty of articles criticising Muhammad for his values, you don't need a rocket scientist to work out that this thread is going to see them come up soon.
    The main difference between the Islam and Christianity is that Christianity has had to grow up alongside secularism and freedom of criticism. It has been mocked, satirised and humbled into the crap it really is all by the peoples freedom to exchange ideas and criticism.

    Islam on the other hand has never been exposed to this and mixing it with the above as is happening now with the barage of muslim immigrants to the west is creating a deadly cocktail for western principles and her citizens
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Hmm the only way Islam allows slavery is through non-Muslim POWs,
    POW is not strictly accurate though, as you will know if you have read the Quran and any relevant hadith. Slaves could be taken by any raiding party on a village or caravan. Women and children do not qualify as POWs, yet they are regularly enslaved. Also, the children of slaves become slaves.

    we don't capture and kidnap and then enslave people according to our religion *cough cough*.
    If the permission to take and keep slaves, and instructions on how to treat them are contained within the Quran and sunnah, then yes, it is "according to your religion".

    Or are you one of these modern, revisionist Muslims who claims that parts of the Quran and sunnah are no longer relevant and are therefore no longer part of your religion?

    *cough cough*
    You realise that this implies that the statement it is attached to was meant tongue-in-cheek, ironically or sarcastically; or that is was an attempt to hide something awkward.

    In which case, what did you mean by it?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    The main difference between the Islam and Christianity is that Christianity has had to grow up alongside secularism and freedom of criticism. It has been mocked, satirised and humbled into the crap it really is all by the peoples freedom to exchange ideas and criticism.

    Islam on the other hand has never been exposed to this and mixing it with the above as is happening now with the barage of muslim immigrants to the west is creating a deadly cocktail for western principles and her citizens
    Well said. PRSOM.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    lol


    Jesus was apparently a better man than Muhammed. He didn't rape, enslave, conquer, or murder anything.

    My childhood is full of teachers and authority figures giving me 'parables' from the Old Testament.

    To be honest I'd say Jesus suffers from the opposite problem. He is like a proto radical socialist that could inspire someone to engage in some verboten activity such as squatting or setting up tents outside a church to protest against modern capitalism.

    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    The main difference between the Islam and Christianity is that Christianity has had to grow up alongside secularism and freedom of criticism. It has been mocked, satirised and humbled into the crap it really is all by the peoples freedom to exchange ideas and criticism.
    and we did all that without banning Christianity or kicking Christians out the country.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    I am fairly certain that any non-christian belief would have been considered heretic 150 years ago and would have been punishable by death.
    :confused: What country are you talking about?
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    (Original post by demx9)
    The delusion is strong in this one.
    Just by looking at your avatar and possible beliefs in supernatural nonsense, you're not one to point fingers.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    My childhood is full of teachers and authority figures giving me 'parables' from the Old Testament.

    To be honest I'd say Jesus suffers from the opposite problem. He is like a proto radical socialist that could inspire someone to engage in some verboten activity such as squatting or setting up tents outside a church to protest against modern capitalism.
    I always wonder this, all the right wing Christians in America love capitalism, but Jesus was the ultimate anarchist hippy, if he were alive today, you know it would be red berets and retro german army jackets
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    I consider anything the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said as blessed and right.
    You are just putting a negative spin on these things.
    Please. Feel free to put a positive spin on...

    "for the Prophet said, 'If somebody discards his religion, kill him.' "

    "So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque.I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones."

    "The Prophet cursed effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses.""

    I know that Islam is merciful and just religion and the commandments of God are not going to wrongfully take the rights of anyone, no matter how others practised similar laws before Islam
    So you think the rights of those mentioned in the sahih hadith above, are being rightfully taken?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Please. Feel free to put a positive spin on...

    "for the Prophet said, 'If somebody discards his religion, kill him.' "

    "So the Prophet orderedthe two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned todeath near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque.I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as toprotect her from the stones."

    "The Prophet cursed effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses.""

    So you think the rights of those mentioned in the sahih hadith above, are being rightfully taken?
    I will just say I submit to everything our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said, before I wrongfully get accused of extremism.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Please. Feel free to put a positive spin on...

    "for the Prophet said, 'If somebody discards his religion, kill him.' "
    I've already asked that but didn't get a reply.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    I will just say I submit to everything our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said, before I wrongfully get accused of extremism.
    So you think that stoning for consensual, adult sex, execution for leaving Islam and persecution for homosexuality are all legitimate and righteous punishments.

    I think people will have already formed an opinion as to your views. Refusing to deny your position does not help you.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    I will just say I submit to everything our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said, before I wrongfully get accused of extremism.
    cowardly words

    but yes if you believe the correct punishment for someone changing their faith is to murder them then yes you are an extremist.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    I always wonder this, all the right wing Christians in America love capitalism, but Jesus was the ultimate anarchist hippy, if he were alive today, you know it would be red berets and retro german army jackets
    Liberation Theology in south america an example of the Christian religion manifesting in a very different way.

    Which is why the actual text is not that important. The problems are the authoritarian and dogmatic cultures and actions that arise out of the texts and they need not actually bare any resemblance to the text. So it doesn't matter if there is stuff in the Quran about rape and genocide if Muslims move towards a more liberal culture. I will always argue the benefits of atheistic humanism but I no longer agree that religion is the route of all evil. If religion provides a motvation for poeple to move towards values I agree with then I don't care either way. A lot of the Kurds in the middle-east are Muslims and there is a lot of good stuff going on over there imo.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    cowardly words

    but yes if you believe the correct punishment for someone changing their faith is to murder them then yes you are an extremist.
    I'm not a coward, I just know I will be banned and even reported to the police for stating the rules of my faith. at least I've defended my religion from ganging-up of you lot. Which is something I can't say for others.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Your assertions are quite off target in the sense that Christianity (New Testament only kind) is a religion that is already more suited to secularism, just like the faiths of Buddhism or Sikhism.

    It's not a question of secularism mocking, satirising or humbling the crap out of anything, but more so, that the nature of Christianity allows this to happen.



    As your argument seems to stem from the premise made above ("Christianity is more amenable to secularist principles", this follow-on argument is again incorrect.

    You also seem to have conflated the secularism with a propagation of inalienable rights, unseemly understanding what either concepts entail.
    I was going to mention this; I doubt the notion of satire was the most significant thing to make Christianity change rather than any kind of inherent nature of the religion itself.
 
 
 
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