Turn on thread page Beta

Do you think David Cameron will get significant EU reforms? watch

Announcements
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gears265)
    Thatcher campaigned for an economic common market but in her latter years was critical of Brussels, the federalisation and the regulation. Her and her allies were either forced out or on to the backbenches to make way for major and his cronies
    Yes, and the Tory party were originally the ones who pushed the EU. You can't stop at some arbitrary point in history because it suits your argument.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gears265)
    No, everything he asked for is kindergarten changes. His whole campaign is a joke and only people like Rakas21believe it is real core reform. You Tory lot need to stop pretending you want a reformed EU with your baby changes and just be honest about your love and loyalty to Brussels, Germany and the EU
    Amusing but you clearly don't know very well and nor have you read my posts on this subject.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gears265)
    Sorry you are deluded, Cameron could come back with nothing and devoted Tories like Rakas21 will still vote to stay in, do you know why? Because they worship the ground Cameron walks on. How many Tories said they wanted out and then changed their mind when Cameron demanded they vote for the Tory party to campaign to stay? All of them that is. These are Rakases, a whole 11 million of them. Tories lack the spine to defy Cameron, they just cry like babies instead
    I don't think Cameron's inevitable spun as what he wanted all along failure will wash with the 70-80% of people who didn't actually vote Tory in the whole public. This EU referendum will attract the people who usually don't vote.

    The Tories may well do as you say, but the whole public won't. The Tories may love Theresa Mayhem for her tough talk, no action immigration policy-the public don't.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Amusing but you clearly don't know very well and nor have you read my posts on this subject.
    Why do you think he could actually get some proper reform? Mainly free movement of people.
    Feel free to link me if you have already said, I just can't see how he can at the moment so would be interested to see another view.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Because changing EU law is much harder to do, and likely to be vetoed by more favourable politicians from a minority of these countries. For me it contradicts the right to privacy quite severely, but I'm not a lawyer so we'll have to wait and see what actually happens with it of course.
    1) the EU law isn't harder to change - only treaty change in the EU is hard to change. the european parliament is a rubber stamp. and "more favourable politicians?" like who? are you talking about the commission or the parliament? because the parliament's powerless and the commission is unelected and too powerful
    2) right to a private, family life is a qualified right (not an absolute right, such as the prohibiton of torture/slavery) - if it is found to be "reasonable" then the EU court won't be able to challenge it - and the satisfaction of "reasonableness" from the courts will be quite easily found by them because the UK's representatives will bull**** their wway into claiming that it is for security purposes (which is a common argument regarding qualified rights, such as the restrictions on people's right to free speech)

    Indeed, but it does make it easier to do so and the Tories have effectively promised to take us out of the ECHR or at least to completely ignore it and impose their own rules instead.
    but please don't imply that we have to stay in europe for the sake of the council or europe, or human rights. the UK really isn't the kind of dictatorship or illiberal regime you're probably picturing it as fundamentally. a british bill of rights will more likely frame confidence-based human rights than the ECHR currently does, with foreign criminals not being able to be deported, for one thing. in my opinion, from the comments european commissioners have made, the EU is far more illiberal than us, especially seeing as many of them want to create a european superstate where we'll have even less power than we'll already have. they also are advocating for an EU army, too. that's even more worrying. why would an organisation like the EU want an army if they aren't going to go to war or get involved in wars?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    1) the EU law isn't harder to change - only treaty change in the EU is hard to change. the european parliament is a rubber stamp. and "more favourable politicians?" like who? are you talking about the commission or the parliament? because the parliament's powerless and the commission is unelected and too powerful
    Conferral m8
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Conferral m8
    why even bother saying anything, though? why not just say "refer to my avatar for the obvious nature of my beliefs"
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Why do you think he could actually get some proper reform? Mainly free movement of people.
    Feel free to link me if you have already said, I just can't see how he can at the moment so would be interested to see another view.
    I don't. His reforms are meaningless and not stuff I want (CAP, CFP, net contribution).

    That said, the renegotiations won't make a difference to whether I vote In or Out and I don't much care about Cameron's opinion although he will go for In and In would win either way.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    why even bother saying anything, though? why not just say "refer to my avatar for the obvious nature of my beliefs"
    I mean, this isn't about my beliefs. You're just objectively talking *******s.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I mean, this isn't about my beliefs. You're just objectively talking *******s.
    how am I talking ****? did I lie in that quotation? where did I lie?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Yes, and the Tory party were originally the ones who pushed the EU. You can't stop at some arbitrary point in history because it suits your argument.
    It was not called the EU in 75, it was the EEC they were joining. The EU and EEC two very different things. Don't try to make them out as the same to suit your argument

    But the Tory party of the 90s, 00s and 10s is very pro-EU so that is true but there were many before that who rejected a political union but not an economic union
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    how am I talking ****? did I lie in that quotation? where did I lie?
    EP most certainly not a rubber stamp and the OLP isn't exactly easy to get stuff through.

    (Original post by Gears265)
    It was called the EU in 75, it was the EEC they were joining. The EU and EEC two very different things. Don't try to make them out as the same to suit your argument

    But the Tory party of the 90s, 00s and 10s is very pro-EU so that is true but there were many before that who rejected a political union but not an economic union
    Don't be ridiculous.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Amusing but you clearly don't know very well and nor have you read my posts on this subject.
    Last time I checked you were campaigning to stay, what changed and if so how long will it be before you run back to Cameron's camp? No doubt him getting the name of a policy changed would be enough Micky mouse reform for you guys
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    EP most certainly not a rubber stamp and the OLP isn't exactly easy to get stuff through.
    can the parliament propose legislation? can they independently amend legislation? can it propose its own president? can it propose the president or the commission or council? does it set the agenda? can it stop the commission doing potentially whatever it wants by unelecting the members of it? err? how is that not a "rubber stamp parliament"? look at other rubber stamp parliaments and give me a few differences which aren't limited to the simple matter that the EU parliament can in theory reject legislation (because in reality it's pretty much taboo for the parliament to do that), it has the one power of rejection of proposed legislation, but how often do you even see legislation even being rejected? give me a few examples
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gears265)
    Last time I checked you were campaigning to stay, what changed and if so how long will it be before you run back to Cameron's camp? No doubt him getting the name of a policy changed would be enough Micky mouse reform for you guys
    I'm between undecided and In for the moment.

    I don't much care about the reform nor Cameron's opinion.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'm between undecided and In for the moment.

    I don't much care about the reform nor Cameron's opinion.
    You are between undecided and in and seeing as undecided is not an option, you are in then. Don't pretend to be on the other side, be proud of being a pro-EU citizen. Can you honestly see yourself voting to leave? You are the average Tory from what I see and an average Tory by today's standards would not for the life of them vote to leave. It is average Tory policy to be in the EU. I believe unless you are a firm out voter now, there is no chance of you voting to leave and that applies to everyone. Because seriously the EU has been utter **** in the last two decades, it can not do more **** than it already has done, there is nothing more it can do to persuade you to leave so just cut the act and be honest with us
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    this is your own country your pawning out here with your silly political quibbles...you'd rather we all sunk, provided david cameron did too?
    1. It was a Joke
    2. So is Cameron
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Just whatever happens I just hope we don't leave the EU in 2017 if that happens then kiss goodbye to any rights and freedom you've had through being a member of the EU
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    It means in effect that we will reduce immigration. I recognise lots of people want to do that, but I don't, so it's a reason for me to vote to stay. I also have absolutely no faith in the Government to effectively protect human rights with their own legislation considering some of the policies they've supported such as state monitoring of all communications, effectively forced labour for private corporations and anti-democratic gerrymandering of constituency boundaries. The EU is far from perfect, but I'd rather be a member than give Cameron free reign.
    Why do you want high numbers of immigrants?

    What makes you think the British bill of rights will be written by a political party? It won't be and if we leave we don't automatically lose our current human rights either.

    The boundaries are something that's needed changing for years everyone knows it takes less votes to elect a labour MP than it does any other party..... That's anti democratic


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    Why do you want high numbers of immigrants?

    What makes you think the British bill of rights will be written by a political party? It won't be and if we leave we don't automatically lose our current human rights either.

    The boundaries are something that's needed changing for years everyone knows it takes less votes to elect a labour MP than it does any other party..... That's anti democratic


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Because I enjoy having a diverse country and appreciate the experience growing up around people from different cultures has given me, and I believe it is beneficial to our economy. They contribute more in tax than they take in welfare, often coming as adult working men ready to work having already been educated at the expense of taxpayers abroad, their spending fuels other often more desirable jobs worked by Brits, and being a country with a larger population in general is beneficial as it allows us to enjoy the economies of scale and be a larger force in international trading.

    Because the Tories have promised to abolish the existing human rights act, and as the sole governing party would have little reason to collaberate or co-operate with others.

    That's actually not true in the slightest. At the last election the Tories got 34,244.5 votes per MP. Labour got 40,290.2. The system already gives the Tories an unfair advantage which was actually the only reason they won a majority, and now they're introducing reforms that will only make that worse.
 
 
 
Poll
Do you think parents should charge rent?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.