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    (Original post by Comus)
    It sounds as though you've been speaking to AnCaps, a 'movement' that exists almost solely on the internet and is far removed from the anarchist philosophical tradition as it has existed historically (with its roots in the Paris Commune and the First International).

    Anarchism is an ideology which is socialist (common ownership of the means of production), anti-statist (state meaning an institution with a monopoly on the use of force over a given area) and generally anti-hierarchy. Within this broad spectrum there are numerous theories on how society society might be organised both politically and economically. One proposed method of organising society, known as anarcho-syndicalism, is based upon federations of federations of workers' councils and popular assemblies based upon direct democracy wherever possible, and delegative democracy where it isn't. If you were the victim of a crime, you could bring your grievance to your local commune and it would be dealt with based upon the process that you have collectively decided upon previously. For the more pro-active prevention of major transgressions, again there are a number of proposed options, ranging from a hue-and-cry style system to workers' militias, again it would be up to local communities to decide for themselves, based on consensus direct democracy, which method to employ.

    If you'd like to see examples of anarchism working in practice, I would recommend looking into Revolutionary Catalonia and the Free Territory Of Ukraine.
    Repped for providing those examples at the end. Made for interesting reading - especially Catalonia. The Red Terror sounds........terrifying.
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    (Original post by woIfie)
    You mean like in a democracy?
    Why is consensus democracy inherently more worthy than representative democracy?
    Ferguson's Investment Theory Of Party Competition points out one of the major deficiencies of representative democracy as opposed to direct democracy.

    (Original post by woIfie)
    If that had even a modicum of truth in it this country never would have had 90% estate taxes. We would never have seen thousands of country houses being demolished by owners who couldn't afford to render up the estate tax to a socialist government

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destru...entury_Britain
    You appear to be referring to the aristocracy rather than the bourgeois, correct me if I'm wrong. The aristocracy are a rump class and though the continued existence of an aristocracy is anachronistic, they are not the main targets of ire.
    The UK has never had a socialist government, the Attlee government was mainly composed of social democrats, it's also worth noting that they didn't hesitate to repress workers' movements when it was politically expedient to do so, for instance, sending troops to break up striking dockers.

    (Original post by woIfie)
    We never would have seen any number is disruptive technologies allowed to thrive and overturn old monopolies if the interests of capital truly controlled society in totality. It's a puerile and childish notion, wholly at odds with the actual historical facts
    Not really. Monopolies, whilst beneficial in the short term to individual bourgeois, are detrimental to the long term interests of capital as a whole. And that's before you factor in the bourgeois of other states, imperialism etc. Even in oligopolistic markets, there is still an incentive to produce below the SNLT in order to make super-profits, one way of doing this - amongst others - is the improvement of technology.
    (Original post by woIfie)
    Somehow your proposal of some kind of ochlocracy where if the mob votes you die, then you die, with your sentence carried out forthwith by a sinister "Workers Militia", sounds a million times worse than what we have now.
    Generally speaking, anarchists oppose the death penalty and, again generally speaking, banishment is the most severe punishment, that anarchists advocate for in an anarchist society. I also find it quite telling that you refer to ordinary people as 'the mob'.

    (Original post by woIfie)
    Like any institution, the workers councils would tend to some sort of politics, of factionalism.
    And how would this be any different to say, that which occurs in workers' cooperatives all over the world? In any case there are means of preventing factionalism from intruding too much on the democratic process such as the model proposed in the diagram attached.
    (Original post by woIfie)
    And in a society where this workers council acts essentially as judge and jury, based on the passions of the mob, it sounds like a recipe for revolutionary terror
    Again, you assume that the imposition of hierarchical authority is necessary for a fair justice system but there's no reason to believe that these geographical communes would be incapable of producing a fair justice system, particularly after the eroding of reactionary narratives and social conditions which give rise to unjust and anti-social behaviour in the first place.
    (Original post by woIfie)
    If anything that's far more oppressive, so the idea that you can call yourself anything other than another form of statist is ludicrous. Your desired society will have a form of sovereign state which is backed by coercive force
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzLVscNUMPI
    ^In response to MLs here, but explains pretty well what is meant by 'state'.
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    That is fine if you all live in the woods and someone steals your bowl of blackberries but how do you deal with complex issues of contract law or disputes between companies based in different countries etc etc?
    Well, anarchists don't just advocate geographical communes but also workers' federations and other popular assemblies, who would (presumably) have their own means of dispute resolution. Of course, that's in reference to mutualist or other forms of market anarchism,* in an anarcho-collectivist or anarcho-communist economy, for obvious reasons (the redundancy of currency etc.) such a situation would be unlikely to occur.

    *Sometimes known under the umbrella term 'free market anti-capitalism'.

    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Repped for providing those examples at the end. Made for interesting reading - especially Catalonia. The Red Terror sounds........terrifying.
    So far as I'm aware, those atrocities were largely committed by pro-soviet factions rather than revolutionary ones, though obviously that doesn't justify those that were committed by members of revolutionary factions. I also recommend George Orwell's accounts of the Spanish civil war, Homage to Catalonia, particularly as to the political manoeuvres that lead to the suppression of the revolutionary factions by the soviet-backed and liberal factions. Also, if you have time for modern day examples, I'd look into the Zapitistas and Rojava.
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    (Original post by Comus)
    Generally speaking, anarchists oppose the death penalty and, again generally speaking, banishment is the most severe punishment, that anarchists advocate for in an anarchist society. I also find it quite telling that you refer to ordinary people as 'the mob'.
    I will respond to your other points tomorrow, but this claim is flawed. For the workers council to be unable to impose the death penalty, there would have to be some sort of constitution which overlays their decisions, preventing a sentence of death.

    And in that case, you appear to be proposing a system where the workers councils do not in fact have full sovereignty if they cannot impose any punishment they choose
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    (Original post by woIfie)
    I will respond to your other points tomorrow, but this claim is flawed. For the workers council to be unable to impose the death penalty, there would have to be some sort of constitution which overlays their decisions, preventing a sentence of death.

    And in that case, you appear to be proposing a system where the workers councils do not in fact have full sovereignty if they cannot impose any punishment they choose
    The establishment of a constitution, say at the formation of said workers' council, outlining processes etc.; only really intrudes upon its sovereignty in the Diceyan sense - constitutions can always be amended as needs require.
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    (Original post by Comus)
    The establishment of a constitution, say at the formation of said workers' council, outlining processes etc.; only really intrudes upon its sovereignty in the Diceyan sense - constitutions can always be amended as needs require.
    And what if the Workers Council simply never votes to outlaw capital punishment? Or a particularly loathsome person comes before the council and they simply repeal the ban and then proceed to execute him?

    You are assuming that with your system in place, the mob would vote precisely how you wish they would vote.
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    (Original post by woIfie)
    And what if the Workers Council simply never votes to outlaw capital punishment? Or a particularly loathsome person comes before the council and they simply repeal the ban and then proceed to execute him?

    You are assuming that with your system in place, the mob would vote precisely how you wish they would vote.
    It's possible, but I consider it unlikely, in light of changing material conditions and the erosion of reactionary narratives. And again, why do you keep referring to "the mob"?
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    (Original post by Comus)
    It's possible, but I consider it unlikely, in light of changing material conditions and the erosion of reactionary narratives.
    Could you explain precisely the mechanism by which the extinguishing of reactionary narratives will ensure no (or at least make unlikely) capital punishment? Which narratives in particular?

    To be frank, such a vague statement sounds less like the dialectic and more like an expression of religious faith. You have faith that the utopia you envision will turn out precisely how you would wish it, rather than having engaged in a robust and logical analysis of the material conditions operating on such a society

    And again, why do you keep referring to "the mob"?
    Because that's precisely what it would be. A justice system based on the instant whim of a group of biased individuals, individuals who have it within their power to order the Workers' Militia to drag the accused out of the hall and machine gun him, is mob justice.

    Representative democracy, checks and balances by way of the separation of the various functions of parliament, the police, the CPS, the judge, the jury and the Court of Appeal, is far more suited to the practice of calm, unbiased deliberation and adjudication of the issues. A system where a mob of people can vote instant death to an accused person is guaranteeing a tragedy; anybody with even a modest knowledge of history would understand that.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Go live on a commune. But please be principaled and refuse to accept benefits in the process.
    I'd love to. Not sure why I'd need to consider benefits in that case...
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    (Original post by woIfie)
    Could you explain precisely the mechanism by which the extinguishing of reactionary narratives will ensure no (or at least make unlikely) capital punishment? Which narratives in particular?
    Partially Chomsky's Propaganda Model particularly regarding fear ideology, but also it should be noted that the implementation of the death penalty is racist and racism is one of the many hierarchies (along with patriarchy, Heteronormativity etc.) that anarchists seek to dismantle - with the dismantling of this hierarchy, it follows that there will be some reduction in the use of the death penalty. Crime rates are falling and those who live in areas with low crime rates are less likely to support the death penalty (page 8), in any case public support for the death penalty is falling.
    (Original post by woIfie)
    To be frank, such a vague statement sounds less like the dialectic and more like an expression of religious faith. You have faith that the utopia you envision will turn out precisely how you would wish it, rather than having engaged in a robust and logical analysis of the material conditions operating on such a society
    I don't pretend that such a system would be perfect, rather it helps to imagine anarchism as a process rather than a fixed state of being, where we as a society are continuously identifying hierarchies, testing whether they can be justified and, if they cannot, dismantling them from below. It's not a utopia. I'm also trying to avoid being too prescriptive, which explains my vagueness somewhat.
    (Original post by woIfie)
    Because that's precisely what it would be. A justice system based on the instant whim of a group of biased individuals, individuals who have it within their power to order the Workers' Militia to drag the accused out of the hall and machine gun him, is mob justice.

    Representative democracy, checks and balances by way of the separation of the various functions of parliament, the police, the CPS, the judge, the jury and the Court of Appeal, is far more suited to the practice of calm, unbiased deliberation and adjudication of the issues. A system where a mob of people can vote instant death to an accused person is guaranteeing a tragedy; anybody with even a modest knowledge of history would understand that.
    You might find this useful (particularly sections 1.5.6 and 1.5.8)
    Did such 'witch-hunts' occur in the Paris commune? In the Free Territory? Do they happen amongst the zapitistas today? Does it happen in Rojava?

    Even if injustices, as awful as they are, such were to occur from time to time does that not pale in comparison to the thousands that die because they are denied the means to live? The victims of imperialism and neo-colonialism?
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    (Original post by Sammydemon)
    I'd love to. Not sure why I'd need to consider benefits in that case...
    Where else do you think people who choose to drop out of society get their money to live from?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Where else do you think people who choose to drop out of society get their money to live from?
    Sorry, that isn't true- although a fair element do live on benefits there quite a few communes that don't expect to be given benefits and grow and make everything they need to live on and do weird hippy stuff to earn money (Festivals, drugs abd artsy crap mostly) ...


    Although I guess they still use the NHS ... so maybe you're half right.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Sorry, that isn't true- although a fair element do live on benefits there quite a few communes that don't expect to be given benefits and grow and make everything they need to live on and do weird hippy stuff to earn money (Festivals, drugs abd artsy crap mostly) ...


    Although I guess they still use the NHS ... so maybe you're half right.
    Valid points.

    I was merely highlighting that those who espouse the demise of society are more than happy to take and use the bits that benefit them.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Where else do you think people who choose to drop out of society get their money to live from?
    What do I need money for? I have my land and property which are part of the commune and can produce food.

    However in reality small communes located within a capitalist democracy can't really work. They can only work on a larger scale of a whole region/landmass in order to have access to the necessary resources and manpower.

    This then takes us back to the necessity of a revolution.
 
 
 
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