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B904 - Extending Freedom of Movement Bill 2015 watch

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    (Original post by JeremyOU)
    Even more strict, there's a points test, medical checks, English checks, qualification checks, requires x years experience in work and said work must be on a limited skilled occupation list.(and be under 50, or 40 in most jobs)

    Unless you buy about 900k worth of Australian government bonds and are worth over 2 million pounds. In which case you can get in no problems. (Invester visa (subclass 188)
    And everything bar the medical is on this list, the question is on this scale how many points do you need to join the fugitives?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And everything bar the medical is on this list, the question is on this scale how many points do you need to join the fugitives?
    My Russian neighbor would easily score about 85 on this points test thing.
    But it's to restrictive, the Australian points system tests intellectual attributes as well as trade skills and this just doesn't work as well. (I score 75 btw)
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    (Original post by JeremyOU)
    My Russian neighbor would easily score about 85 on this points test thing.
    But it's to restrictive, the Australian points system tests intellectual attributes as well as trade skills and this just doesn't work as well. (I score 75 btw)
    This does indirectly test intellectual attributes given that you pretty much need a decent level of education to get the 75, although there is no requirement on the classifications for each level of education, so I guess you could just scrape through the exams and get the points.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    This does indirectly test intellectual attributes given that you pretty much need a decent level of education to get the 75, although there is no requirement on the classifications for each level of education, so I guess you could just scrape through the exams and get the points.
    The Australian one is still better. I would be favour of using it.
    But not ukips latest copy. It just doesn't work.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    Recent legislation from UKIP have titles that sound like something from the Greens more than anyone else. Remnant of the coalition?
    Don't you think it is a bit long after that coalition for the Greens to be an influencing factoring recent legislation titles? What about the Face Coverings Prohibition Bill? That does not sound like something from the Greens, and that came earlier than this, so surely that should have been influenced more by the Greens than this (which clearly is not the case)? I think that under this leadership, UKIP is moving further to the right and is becoming more conservative, making it a truly conservative party (unlike the Conservative Party, which is full of closet liberals).
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    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    Don't you think it is a bit long after that coalition for the Greens to be an influencing factoring recent legislation titles? What about the Face Coverings Prohibition Bill? That does not sound like something from the Greens, and that came earlier than this, so surely that should have been influenced more by the Greens than this (which clearly is not the case)? I think that under this leadership, UKIP is moving further to the right and is becoming more conservative, making it a truly conservative party (unlike the Conservative Party, which is full of closet liberals).
    There are two types of people in the world who define how conservative somebody is by how authoritarian they are on the right, the left, and authoritarians trying to justify their position.
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    Nay.
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    You put in all that effort and then try to cut down the list of EEA countries from which freedom of movement is permitted. Nay.

    Add them back in and you might get an aye.

    I'd also like a review of the rules regarding overruling fundamental principles of the EU following the referendum, in accordance with the 4-term limit on overturning, as it seems to me to be a slow exit by the back door.

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    Grunch: Nay.

    1) We are still members of the European Union and this places all sorts of restrictions which violate the Union's four fundamental freedoms. Voting in favour of this would be voting to effectively leave the Union and that's not a legitimate way to do that after we've had a referendum. Like it or not, the freedoms apply to the whole Union, not just the rich parts. Sure, it doesn't 'end' freedom of movement but it's still wildly incompatible with the principle.
    2) If you're going to apply this points system, it should apply to everyone, including those with UK citizenship - who have no reason aside from practicality to have greater priority.
    3) There is no provision made for refugees, who this country has a basic ethical obligation to support. In so doing, I'm also pretty sure this violates the ECHR.
    4) Your notion of a 'basic level of English' for English speaking countries is ridiculously high: only 37% of those doing English GCSE in 2015 got a grade B or above, and yet I'm pretty sure that they, coming from English-speaking countries, will be more than competent of integrating into UK communities (in fact, most of them already are!).
    5) Sections 1(4)-(5) basically rule out people fleeing economic woes in other countries, a position which I'm ideologically incompatible with. There's also no provision for those who have been in full-time education for much of the past 3 years.
    6) Not all undergraduate or doctorate degrees are alike, there needs to be more subtlety in that part of the system.
    7) Where are the provisions for family visas?

    There are innumerable other problems with this Bill. While it may look superficially well-written due to the many references to existing institutions, unfortunately at the moment it's just a steaming pile of crap. I suggest that, rather than making amendments to what you've got already, you scrap the whole thing and start again, which will probably be a quicker way of reaching a workable Bill.

    Edit: I've just seen mention of a 'canon amendment' which means we can overrule EU law. Can someone please link me, and ideally also justify what seems like a terrible idea?
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    (Original post by Airmed)
    That happens to me too.



    I reinstalled the app this evening as I had nothing else to do. Let's face it, JD, tsr hates me.
    My app's working fine

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    Gurkhas could be excluded but Eminem and Justin Bieber accepted. Speak French and it is better than Spanish or German. If the rules applied to existing persons in the UK, then Manuel Pelligrini would be excluded but not Louis Van Gaal. Accountants are allegedly in short supply.

    Nay
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Gurkhas could be excluded but Eminem and Justin Bieber accepted. Speak French and it is better than Spanish or German. If the rules applied to existing persons in the UK, then Manuel Pelligrini would be excluded but not Louis Van Gaal. Accountants are allegedly in short supply.

    Nay
    Oh God, good point; please no Bieber:eek:

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Working out what I would get, what is the maximum number of points, because even after getting my degree next year I will still be a bit short and that's without missing much.

    Seems to basically say " be a white man from western Europe or one of the particularly white former colonies, or be a millionaire ".

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    You would be 10 points short but that is the point, the bill makes sure only those with sufficient work experience and wealth enter the country. The immigration system should only accept those who have money to invest or lots of skills with work experience to contribute, if we went by the logic of having immigration requirements at the level where every Britain qualified we would have no requirements at all.

    (Original post by JeremyOU)
    The Australian one is still better. I would be favour of using it.But not ukips latest copy. It just doesn't work.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    This does indirectly test intellectual attributes given that you pretty much need a decent level of education to get the 75, although there is no requirement on the classifications for each level of education, so I guess you could just scrape through the exams and get the points.
    The bill was written using the online questionnaire of the Australian system with references to receiving an extra 5 points if a spouse met all of the educational requirements.
    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    It's an abstain for now, Surprisingly, I can't actually see an immediate problem this would cause, however, I've got a problem with the bits about having enough funding to cover healthcare and cost of living. Why are sufficient funds for healthcare required given that we have an NHS? And how do you define the cost of living? Also, why are languages such as Yiddish included in the section relating to translators? Is a Yiddish translator really someone invaluable in the UK?
    If the person has a job where they are paying taxes the person does not need to have enough funds to cover the cost of their healthcare but if the person does not have a job the person must pay for their own healthcare. Currently people on visas are meant to have health insurance to cover the cost of their healthcare but having health insurance is not a perquisite of entry like it is in Australia. This bill introduces the requirement to have sufficient funds to cover any medical care until a job has been found, allowing the person to contribute to society in taxes; it is fair.
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    Here is an image to clarify the different steps each tier of immigration has to go through.

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    In addition to my earlier point, surely just because Monty Python made accountants the butt of jokes doe not mean that they should be a registered skill shortage. Neither should barristers or solicitors be included in my view.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    In addition to my earlier point, surely just because Monty Python made accountants the butt of jokes doe not mean that they should be a registered skill shortage. Neither should barristers or solicitors be included in my view.
    Hear, hear. There are a number of professions on the list that there is no shortage of, and that if anything we need to get rid of.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    In addition to my earlier point, surely just because Monty Python made accountants the butt of jokes doe not mean that they should be a registered skill shortage. Neither should barristers or solicitors be included in my view.
    Haha true

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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    You would be 10 points short but that is the point, the bill makes sure only those with sufficient work experience and wealth enter the country. The immigration system should only accept those who have money to invest or lots of skills with work experience to contribute, if we went by the logic of having immigration requirements at the level where every Britain qualified we would have no requirements at all.

    The bill was written using the online questionnaire of the Australian system with references to receiving an extra 5 points if a spouse met all of the educational requirements.
    If the person has a job where they are paying taxes the person does not need to have enough funds to cover the cost of their healthcare but if the person does not have a job the person must pay for their own healthcare. Currently people on visas are meant to have health insurance to cover the cost of their healthcare but having health insurance is not a perquisite of entry like it is in Australia. This bill introduces the requirement to have sufficient funds to cover any medical care until a job has been found, allowing the person to contribute to society in taxes; it is fair.
    Why do you take experience into account? I have a job offer starting in January but no experience. With your system, It wouldn't have worked for me.

    You should instead give visas to immigrants with a secured job offer, above say £21,000. It would eliminate "benefit" and low-skilled immigration. If an employer is ready to hire a foreigner at a good salary, it means he couldn't find a similar profile at home. The visa would last as long as the migrant is employed, plus a short time period (say 10% of the time he has stayed in the UK) so he can find another job if his first contract is terminated.
    It would be more flexible than a points system decided by civil servants; employers would make a better selection.
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    Yaas I've got 85 points.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Why do you take experience into account? I have a job offer starting in January but no experience. With your system, It wouldn't have worked for me.

    You should instead give visas to immigrants with a secured job offer, above say £21,000. It would eliminate "benefit" and low-skilled immigration. If an employer is ready to hire a foreigner at a good salary, it means he couldn't find a similar profile at home. The visa would last as long as the migrant is employed, plus a short time period (say 10% of the time he has stayed in the UK) so he can find another job if his first contract is terminated.
    It would be more flexible than a points system decided by civil servants; employers would make a better selection.
    A person with 10 years' experience at a job is likely to be better at the job than a person who has a month of experience. I would support some of that but I do think visas need to expire at some point in the future to prevent the immigrant retiring in Britain which creates a burden.
 
 
 
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