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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    I don't agree with you at all, it's too much of a broad thing to be able to say it simply doesn't work. There's thousands of cultures in the world, most modern cultures are mixtures of older cultural groups. Just because group A doesn't seem to be working with group B right now, doesn't mean that group A doesn't work fine with group D, group E and group F.

    Most of the time multiculturalism works and nobody notices, it's only when there's a problem that you make a problem about it. The country I am from is by definition multicultural, we don't have a 'host' culture yet we don't have any major racial hatred issues or people not integrating. When I moved from that country to Britain, I didn't need to integrate. I already did 90% of things the same, changing the little things were probably pointless.
    Amen
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    That definition you stated doesn't seem to be what anyone who has opposed the OP is referring to though. Everyone is referring to a 'multiculturalism' where people actually integrate into the culture of the host nation which isn't what is implied by the definition you've given. This definition implies that all aspects of the an ethnic group's culture are kept intact.


    If someone could actually give an example of exactly where multiculturalism by the definition you've given (that is without these diverse cultures being compromised at all) with zero problems and complete harmony then I'd revise my stance.


    But that's exactly the case! People are defining it differently (mostly to support their argument) and that is what is causing misunderstandings.
    Assimilation and integration indicates that the host country is mono-cultural, not multicultural.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Wikipedia says: "Multiculturalism describes the existence, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction". There's nothing there that specifies that these incoming cultures have to behave as personified overseas territories of their country of origin, it simply means that they are maintaining cultural traditions. Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive. If your definition of multiculturalism is literally that people expect to be able to behave in precisely the same way as they would in their homeland then sure, that's a problem, but that's fairly self-evident and it's not the definition that most people use.

    It's completely true that the ease of integration will depend on individuals as well as cultural differences. However, once again, the fact that 15% of the British population was born abroad yet we still operate within a civilised, law-abiding society proves that different cultures are completely capable of coexisting. It is not asking for trouble. And in an increasingly globalised world where the incentive for international cooperation is very strong, there's a really powerful incentive for cultural mixing.

    If people have to abandon certain and often integral aspects of their culture in order to fit in to the culture of their host nation that really can't be seen as complete multiculturalism because everyone is conforming to a general status quo.
    Like I said some aspects can remain but you can't expect 'multiple cultural traditions existing within a single jurisdiction' to be something that won't cause at least a bit of trouble.

    Except that does happen.
    In what is seen to be the most multicultural place on earth (New York) you do have communities that are like 'personified overseas territories of their countries of origin' For example, China town. That seems to defeat the purpose of coexistence if people have to make for themselves little replica communities of their home nations.


    But then what about the quote I referred you to from the ethologist Frank Salter?
    Ethnic nepotism? The fact that in so many places all over the world there have been wars and civil unrest becasue people can't live together peacefully? So many people have died and are still going to die because of this.
    The migrant crisis is the biggest example of this.
    We can't keep pretending to ourselves that multiculturalism (by your Wikipedia definition) is nothing but good when we have so many problems arising as a result of it.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Assimilation and integration indicates that the host country is mono-cultural, not multicultural.

    Well yes exactly.
    Not sure what your point is though becasue I'm essentially saying people have a warped view of what multiculturalism is which is why I put it in quotes.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
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    Let's cut the hypocrisy: Multiculturalism can work, as long as Islam is not involved.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Well yes exactly.
    Not sure what your point is though.
    If you're expecting assimilation and integration, then it's incorrect of you to say that multiculturalism has failed/doesn't work, when it clearly hasn't because we have a diverse range of cultures that exist in the UK.

    If you are going to make blase arguments in regards to a topic that affects upwards of 8 million citizens, it would be helpful to at least get the terms right.
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    (Original post by thatbrodou)
    While its true that many these practices do take place, many of them do so ilegally and only within tribal areas of certain nations i.e. FGM,
    I think you should read up on FGM http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/newr...eply&t=3891801 which is not at all limited to "tribal" areas

    FGM distribution Name:  FGM_prevalence_15–49_(2014).svg.png
Views: 110
Size:  16.6 KB

    FGFM is spreading, because immigrant communities often practice it even in European States/US
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    If you're expecting assimilation and integration, then it's incorrect of you to say that multiculturalism has failed/doesn't work, when it clearly hasn't because we have a diverse range of cultures that exist in the UK.

    If you are going to make blase arguments in regards to a topic that affects upwards of 8 million citizens, it would be helpful to at least get the terms right.
    Read my edit.


    Integration is the only way people from different ethnic backgrounds can exist with zero problems.

    But do those cultures coexist peacefully? If it hasn't failed then there'd be no xenophobia or racism or constant complaint everyday from Tsrians saying that the culture of their country is being eroded. If everyone was getting along just fine there wouldn't be any ethnic tensions which there clearly are if you watch the news. People wouldn't complain about grooming gangs and child marriage in the UK. After all it's their culture and we're all one big happy family. Black women wouldn't be yelling abuse at Muslim women on buses. Slovakian gypsies wouldn't be threatening to rape British citizens.
    Don't kid yourself
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    I've always known multiculturalism as coexistence. So, people from different backgrounds and different cultures working and living in the same communities and at peace.

    I could move there for many reasons. I could have found a job there, or may have had relatives in the country. I could move there for the climate too if I were retired and such. Just because I move to a country doesn't necessarily mean I care or should care about the culture, provided I live within the law. And yes, France is quite Catholic.
    63% of the French are not religious. Catholicism is dying.

    http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/14/file/14.pdf (page 3)
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    So let's make a gross generalisation and talk about the 100,000-strong Chinese community in the UK. Do they maintain their culture and traditions in the UK? Of course. But I don't think I'm going to hear you start complaining about how we need to throw Chinese immigrants out of the country, despite the fact that they maintain their foreign cultural identity. So your problem isn't multiculturalism, your problem is specific cultures.
    100,000 people in the UK is a comparatively small community. Usually, problems start when a minority builds up strength, and tries to gain more weight in society.

    Quite often, 10-15% is quoted as a level where you are stepping into dangerous territory, as a community will ask for special treatment, special rules & exceptions etc etc
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Read my edit.


    Integration is the only way people from different ethnic backgrounds can exist with zero problems.

    But do those cultures coexist peacefully? If it hasn't failed then there'd be no xenophobia or racism or constant complaint everyday from Tsrians saying that the culture of their country is being eroded. If everyone was getting along just fine there wouldn't be any ethnic tensions which there clearly are if you watch the news. People wouldn't complain about grooming gangs and child marriage in the UK. After all it's their culture and we're all one big happy family. Black women wouldn't be yelling abuse at Muslim women on buses. Slovakian gypsies wouldn't be threatening to rape British citizens.
    Don't kid yourself
    That's not the issue.

    Ethnic tensions are there because people expect others to integrate/assimilate, which is something that is not necessary in a multicultural society.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    That's not the issue.

    Ethnic tensions are there because people expect others to integrate/assimilate, which is something that is not necessary in a multicultural society.
    Why shouldn't people integrate?

    I bet if some westerners moved to Saudi Arabia skimpily dressed, advocating gay rights and holding orgies every once in a while they wouldn't be greeted with open arms. A country like that won't tolerate the western societal values it deems disgusting and would expect everyone to integrate and comply with the Islamic laws.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    That definition you stated doesn't seem to be what anyone who has opposed the OP is referring to though. Everyone is referring to a 'multiculturalism' where people actually integrate into the culture of the host nation which isn't what is implied by the definition you've given. This definition implies that all aspects of the an ethnic group's culture are kept intact.


    If someone could actually give an example of exactly where multiculturalism by the definition you've given (that is without these diverse cultures being compromised at all) with zero problems and complete harmony then I'd revise my stance.


    But that's exactly the case! People are defining it differently (mostly to support their argument) and that is what is causing misunderstandings.
    The multicultralism they are refering to is called intergration, not multicultralism. They are quite different in many aspects.

    Obviously we cannot live in a multicultral society with no problems at all. There's always going to be some sort of dispute between cultral groups, we can't stop it 100% but we can reduce it greatly so that any sort of dispute would only happen rarely.

    Anyways that's just my view on this topic
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    That's not the issue.

    Ethnic tensions are there because people expect others to integrate/assimilate, which is something that is not necessary in a multicultural society.
    of course that we should integrate

    why on Earth should we live one beside the other, in our little cultural, legal, religious, and even physical ghettos ?

    tensions come if people live in separate, organised communities which will start competing with each other for ascendancy : just look at e.g. Lebanon
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    who cares. we're going to nuke ourselves into extinction soon enough.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Why shouldn't people integrate?

    I bet if some westerners moved to Saudi Arabia skimpily dressed, advocating gay rights and holding orgies every once in a while they wouldn't be greeted with open arms. A country like that won't tolerate the western societal values it deems disgusting and would expect everyone to integrate and comply with the Islamic laws.
    multiculturalism has clearly shown its limits, and now the huge problem is how to develop integrated societies : and the huge influx of migrants has made the problem even much more urgent

    next to no one with some sense thinks that we should keep South Asians, Arabs, Eastern Europeans, Africans etc etc all in their little boxes : integration needs to be pursued in education, housing , employment
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    People within a culture have disagreements/conflicts hence inevitable.
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    Multiculturalism can work, however mass immigration of people from other different cultures will undoubtedly fail. Ironically culture of a country is mixed between indigineous and other... IE- Tea in Britain from Indian, National dish being chicken tikka, Fish and chips being introduced from Jewish Sephardics etc.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    This is a topic that has been on my mind for a long time and until today I've been too scared to voice my opinions on it for fear of backlash from my ethnic community.
    I'm aware this topic has been done to death by european nationals that are experiencing the downsides of living in a society where they are being forced to get used to living with so many different people with societal values that are completely different to theirs in order to seem poilitically correct and tolerant despite the harm it's doing to their own society. But as somewhat of an outsider and as someone that this issue Europe ( The migrant crisis) is facing doesn't directly affect I'd like to share what I think of the issue. And my opinions aren't restricted to just Europe but to the world at large.
    Will try to keep it short.



    1. Multiculturalism is a catalyst to war and conflict. Lets take this scenario for example; In a chemistry lab, all the different chemicals are stored separately in their own special bottles specifically designed for the chemical that is being stored within. What happens when you decide to pour all those chemicals in one large vat? There's likely going to be an explosion that'd tear the roof off. Different places have different societal values and it's impossible to ask people to just 'respect' that. Some people can and some people can not. For example some cultures accept child marriages and think sex with minors is justifiable but becasue of my own upbringing and personal morals I just can't accept it and I never will. I personally can not even share a room with someone that thinks that that's okay. It's not difficult how to see how that could possibly lead to conflict and tensions between two groups. Which brings me to my next point.

    2. Multiculturalism incites racial hatred. People would love to assume that being around people who are completely different to you culturally and scoially would cause people to become more tolerant but it does the exact opposite. It highlights the irreconcilable differences between the two groups of people and constantly being exposed to societal values tnat you don't agree with/hate will one way or another lead to believing that anyone who holds such opinions must be less than human and scum. It breeds an us vs them mentality. It's obvious that this will become problematic in the long run.


    3. It affects the legal/judicial system in a country. Once a country's government starts changing it's laws in order to appease a minority rather than the majority then there's a problem. For example, a country in which child marriage is illegal laxing it's laws on child marriage in order to appease a small minority of people. There's no way that won't casue outrage. That's not how legal systems should work.


    4. It dilutes the culture of the host nation. As much as people don't want to admit it, having so many different people coming to live in one place who must by all means take every aspect of their own culture with them, effectively erodes the cultural and national identity of the place they're moving to and it's not fair to the natives of that place. I sure as hell wouldn't want thousands of people to come in to my country and refuse to integrate thereby burying my country's rich cultural heritage..



    After all that's been said, it's clear that multiculturalism is just a utopian fantasy that can't be fully achieved anywhere as much as it pains me to say. I can't think of one place where people of conflicting backgrounds and origins live together in perfect peace and harmony.
    You even get family members and relatives calling you derogatory names for trying to integrate in the new society. (Ie south asians calling other well adjusted south asians 'coconuts'

    By no means a solution but some advice:
    When deciding to relocate to a new country you must make this decision. Are you going to be able to accept the laws, societal values and culture of the host nation? Are you going to be kind and respectful to locals even if you don't agree with their culture? Will you make an effort to learn the language of the host nation you are moving to? Are you going to try and integrate into the society and not form cliques and seperate communities that refuse to mix with others?
    If the answer to all these is no then I think it's best to stay in your own country.

    The only thing I can justify taking along with you are aspects of your culture that your host nation can actively benefit from (ie cuisine, entertainment etc)


    Tldr: Multiculturalism doesn't work effectively anywhere


    Conflicting opinions are welcome
    How dim life would be if every individual abided only to their culture.

    Don't make it out as if multiculturalism is a complete fail, as it's not. Who wants to live life being ignorant, close-minded and intolerant to people who live differently to us?
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    The multicultralism they are refering to is called intergration, not multicultralism. They are quite different in many aspects.

    Obviously we cannot live in a multicultral society with no problems at all. There's always going to be some sort of dispute between cultral groups, we can't stop it 100% but we can reduce it greatly so that any sort of dispute would only happen rarely.

    Anyways that's just my view on this topic
    Hence why I put multiculturalism in quotes

    Ah well that's a very positive outlook.
    Thanks for sharing your opinion
 
 
 
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