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    (Original post by mangala)
    tory
    Tory isn't an insult


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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I haven't said anything that would require the probability of people identifying as utilitarians to be higher than 'incredibly slim.' My contention is that many leftists (at least the ones I've met) who do describe themselves as utilitarians also hold positions that are inconsistent with utilitarianism. This isn't simply internal political disagreement -- if somebody believes in inviolable rights for either humans or animals, for instance, then he is not a utilitarian, regardless of which way you look at it.

    The word has a meaning which isn't infinitely flexible, and many supposed utilitarians ought to bear the definition in mind before styling themselves as such. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some of these 'utilitarians' cringing at your defence of infanticide on that abortion thread a few days ago, grounded as that is in 'logical' utilitarian thought.
    You said "just about every leftist I know fancies himself a utilitarian", which I found to be implausible. If this is the case, I rejoice, although I'm in complete agreement that some of these so-called utilitarians you know would cringe at some of the consequences of utilitarianism (which would itself be a consequentialist objection, ironically). It should be noted, though, that I'm a prior-existence preference utilitarian: classical, hedonistic utilitarians would not believe that infanticide is permissible because it would likely reduce the number of future happy lives in existence. That's perhaps one of the few circumstances in which it matters for practical purposes which form of utilitarianism one holds to.

    The utilitarians I know or know of, who number in the hundreds or possibly a bit over a thousand, do all accept the unintuitive consequences of whichever form of utilitarianism they hold to. The utilitarian community used to hold many discussions on this forum, although it's mostly conducted on Facebook these days.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    You said "just about every leftist I know fancies himself a utilitarian", which I found to be implausible.
    The devil is in the detail. Nothing implausible about what I've said; it's perfectly true.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    The devil is in the detail. Nothing implausible about what I've said; it's perfectly true.
    I have no reason to suspect that you're lying, but even so, the probability of a leftist being a utilitarian would still be incredibly slim in my view, so the probability of any random leftist you happen to know being a utilitarian still seems low, a priori.

    I'm sure the people you're close enough to to know their philosophical positions have been unconsciously or consciously selected by you because of their interest in these topics, however, so it's not as implausible as it may seem, I suppose. I was just expressing my surprise more than my incredulity, although the latter response does show up in the words I typed.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    The devil is in the detail. Nothing implausible about what I've said; it's perfectly true.
    The problem with what you've said is that it's not inconsistent with utilitarianism to recognise that certain things ought to be recognised as 'rights', as otherwise short-term irrationality will cause poor decisions to be made. It's not too dissimilar to rule utilitarianism.

    FWIW I don't recognise human rights, animal rights or whatever else, but I don't believe it's impossible to consistently hold utilitarianism and usual leftist politics to both be correct.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    Tory isn't an insult


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    i just used it as an insult
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Absolutely. In fact why don't we expand capitalism by getting emergency operators to start asking for credit card details straight away whenever people call needing an ambulance or an immediate police response unit ("So, my little six year old. You need the police because someone broke into your house and is hurting your mommy. I'll need to know how you'll pay for that service first?). I'm sure they'd appreciate having to pay for things like that because, you know, capitalism is awesome...not.

    This is where capitalism leads us. It only serves to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer. About 10 years ago the richest 300 people in the world owned half the world's wealth, now it's the richest 62. How can that ever be right?
    This is a strawman. It is possible to have elements of capitalism and not privatise essential services like the emergency services.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    FWIW I don't recognise human rights, animal rights or whatever else, but I don't believe it's impossible to consistently hold utilitarianism and usual leftist politics to both be correct.
    Indeed. It's possible to hold that a socialist, or social democratic, society, is one which maximises utility (personally, I think that that's likely in today's world given that those living in the Scandinavian countries are the happiest people in the world). Or, it's possible to hold that a libertarian socialist society, for instance, will actually make people more altruistic as they will be more free. And, as I mentioned, a communist society would probably be the society that a group of pure utilitarians would live in.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Also, I knew it wouldn't be long before people started throwing about Mises quotes as though his ideas weren't advocated solely by oddballs nowadays.
    Not an argument.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    First, I don't have a right to bodily integrity. Second, the problem is it's very difficult to establish reasonably that recipients of black market organs need them more than myself, and there's also a massive cluster**** surrounding consequences on third parties.
    I think it's obvious that organ recipients need your organs more than you do. Each of your organs can save the life of someone who only needs one, so your one life can be traded for several others. In addition to that, the sales would raise a lot of money - it only costs £200 to save a life. It is clear that there would be a net benefit.

    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Third, I would have a problem because I'm selfish, as is everyone else.
    Ah, but the fact that you're selfish is completely irrelevant to whether or not it is moral!

    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    People are irrational, and generally make decisions in their own interest rather than the social interest (the latter being the moral way to make decisions). Where there are multiple agents in the decision-making process, intensely selfish options are discarded because they only bring benefit to one person, and they are less irrational because different people are irrational in different ways and the group allows irrationality to be exposed; and thus one gets closer to a rational decision in the social interest. This effect only gets greater the more people who are part of the decision-making process. It follows that the state (a large collective of people) is better at making decisions than individuals, without the majority tyranny problems of direct democracy.
    But currently, only a very small number of people (politicians and those they employ) are part of the decision-making process! The more power you give the state, the worse this gets - privatising an industry means that the only people who make decisions about it are certain government employees, rather than all the potential customers (a massive group).
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    (Original post by paul514)
    Please tell me how capitalism will work in 25 to 50 years when most people will have lost their job to automation


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    I said it thrives, I never said that it would thrive eternally. Like a virus, capitalism will grow to a point of unsustainability and die. Or so that is my belief.
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    (Original post by mangala)
    tory
    Ah, labelling... A perfect example of how not to be objective and impartial.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    If capitalism is so natural, why did it take until the last few centuries for it to appear and take hold?
    The industrial revolution removed the need for subsistence living. Machines were efficient enough for surplus produce to be produced and thusly, those that owned the machines, owned the surplus.
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    (Original post by Fickschlitten)
    Capitalism is the best we have. Reward the ones that work hard.
    Capitalism is the best but it doesn't reward the ones who work hard (thank god) it rewards those who satisfy market demand most effectively.

    You can work as a peasant in China and that would be really hard, back-breaking work. You won't be paid **** though because you won't be able to produce much to satisfy enough people. Rather, a Canadian farmer with a truck and modern tools, will destroy you by producing 100 times as much as you do with minimal effort (compared to you).
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    (Original post by mangala)
    u and ur dad are both tories
    My Dad takes no active part in politics.

    And clearly, neither do you.
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    (Original post by JPO92)
    My Dad takes no active part in politics.

    And clearly, neither do you.
    i am taking an active part in politics by discussing politics with u right now buddy buddy bud bud
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    (Original post by mangala)
    i am taking an active part in politics by discussing politics with u right now buddy buddy bud bud
    Your politics is boring. Take it to the thread for 'pedantic trivia' and you'll be right at home.
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    (Original post by JPO92)
    Your politics is boring. Take it to the thread for 'pedantic trivia' and you'll be right at home.
    you just said pedantic. confirmed tory
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    (Original post by mangala)
    i just used it as an insult
    You tried to yea but it isn't an insult


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    (Original post by mangala)
    ok good u bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad tory
    Wow


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