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Clients of prostitutes criminalized in France Watch

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    (Original post by Barbastelle)
    But then should we not be trying to do something about it? This new law isn't criminalising the women, it's criminalising the men that seek them out. If the money that comes from fining them could go at least some way to getting women off the streets or helping to protect them from some of the dangers that come with what they're doing (i.e. STIs, unwanted pregnancies, violence or drug/alcohol abuse), then surely that's a good thing?
    Barbastelle
    (Original post by Zarek)
    I know prostitution is a complex issue, oldest profession and all that, and the cause and solutions to this 'industry' are about addressing poverty and depravation. But sometime the law just has to combat in some way what is clearly wrong, like mature men having sex with barely adult girls in very questionable circumstances. Why do you think so many countries are going down this route, it's because we know in our heart what is wrong here.
    And we know in our heads that what we're doing only makes the situation worse for these women. What you both want to do is to do "something" because it's "wrong", even if that "something" only makes more women suffer. This happens far too often with reactionary solutions to problems - we take a "tough on crime" approach purely because it makes us feel better for doing something about it. Then we pat ourselves on the back and forget about it.

    This approach drives the industry underground. It turns a sort of legitimate business into a completely illegitimate one. It stops women who want to do it from going into it, but the demand is still there, because it's a fairly well-established fact that prohibition of just about anything doesn't stop people doing it. So this demand is then fulfilled by organised criminals forcing unwilling women to do the work.

    I completely understand why you'd want to do something about it. But we know that the criminalization approach makes the problem worse, so taking that approach just so we can say that we're doing something is disgusting.
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    (Original post by JordanL_;[url="tel:64039989")
    64039989[/url]]And we know in our heads that what we're doing only makes the situation worse for these women. What you both want to do is to do "something" because it's "wrong", even if that "something" only makes more women suffer. This happens far too often with reactionary solutions to problems - we take a "tough on crime" approach purely because it makes us feel better for doing something about it. Then we pat ourselves on the back and forget about it.

    This approach drives the industry underground. It turns a sort of legitimate business into a completely illegitimate one. It stops women who want to do it from going into it, but the demand is still there, because it's a fairly well-established fact that prohibition of just about anything doesn't stop people doing it. So this demand is then fulfilled by organised criminals forcing unwilling women to do the work.

    I completely understand why you'd want to do something about it. But we know that the criminalization approach makes the problem worse, so taking that approach just so we can say that we're doing something is disgusting.
    Prostitution has never been a legitimate business. Im glad that the consensus is against a laissez faire attitude that says do nothing to challenge some things that are clearly immoral.
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    (Original post by Zarek)
    Prostitution has never been a legitimate business. Im glad that the consensus is against a laissez faire attitude that says do nothing to challenge some things that are clearly immoral.
    So you're glad that the consensus is that we should do something for the sake of doing something, even when it leads to more women being exploited?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    And we know in our heads that what we're doing only makes the situation worse for these women. What you both want to do is to do "something" because it's "wrong", even if that "something" only makes more women suffer. This happens far too often with reactionary solutions to problems - we take a "tough on crime" approach purely because it makes us feel better for doing something about it. Then we pat ourselves on the back and forget about it.

    This approach drives the industry underground. It turns a sort of legitimate business into a completely illegitimate one. It stops women who want to do it from going into it, but the demand is still there, because it's a fairly well-established fact that prohibition of just about anything doesn't stop people doing it. So this demand is then fulfilled by organised criminals forcing unwilling women to do the work.

    I completely understand why you'd want to do something about it. But we know that the criminalization approach makes the problem worse, so taking that approach just so we can say that we're doing something is disgusting.
    I definitely understand what you're saying, but if we feel in our hearts that what's happening is wrong, then does that not dictate that there should be some form of punishment for the guilty party?
    Barbastelle
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    (Original post by Barbastelle)
    I definitely understand what you're saying, but if we feel in our hearts that what's happening is wrong, then does that not dictate that there should be some form of punishment for the guilty party?
    Barbastelle
    If punishing them is only going to lead to more women being exploited, then I think we absolutely shouldn't.
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    (Original post by JordanL_;[url="tel:64040261")
    64040261[/url]]So you're glad that the consensus is that we should do something for the sake of doing something, even when it leads to more women being exploited?
    As you might expect, I don't accept your contention. And more people apparently share this view than your position.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    If punishing them is only going to lead to more women being exploited, then I think we absolutely shouldn't.
    What if their punishment could go some way towards helping the women? I.e by helping them to get off the streets and into rehab or other professions, providing STI/health check-ups or mental/emotional counselling?
    Barbastelle
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    (Original post by Zarek)
    As you might expect, I don't accept your contention. And more people apparently share this view than you position.
    What do you not accept? That these laws don't cause more women to be exploited? Because I can give you a mountain of evidence to show that I'm right.

    Or do you not accept that we shouldn't do things that are only going to lead to more women being exploited?

    It's completely irrelevant which view more people hold. Most people insisted that the Earth was flat long after we had solid, scientific, peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary. It turns out those people were wrong.
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    (Original post by Barbastelle)
    What if their punishment could go some way towards helping the women? I.e by helping them to get off the streets and into rehab or other professions, providing STI/health check-ups or mental/emotional counselling?
    Barbastelle
    As far as I know, countries where prostitution is fully legalized often have very strict regulations regarding health check-ups. This is much, much harder to do when there's a criminal element to it, because pimps aren't going to send their secret sex slaves to the doctor for a check-up. When we drive the industry underground, it becomes much harder to regulate it and protect the people involved - the police don't even know who most illegal sex workers are.

    When it's legal, women can do it willingly. This reduces the demand for illegal sex workers, and it means that we can keep track of who's doing it and take all the appropriate measures to look after them.
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    (Original post by JordanL_;[url="tel:64040727")
    64040727[/url]]What do you not accept? That these laws don't cause more women to be exploited? Because I can give you a mountain of evidence to show that I'm right.

    Or do you not accept that we shouldn't do things that are only going to lead to more women being exploited?

    It's completely irrelevant which view more people hold. Most people insisted that the Earth was flat long after we had solid, scientific, peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary. It turns out those people were wrong.
    This type of argument has been used to avoid confronting other abuses and I think European governments have given the matter serious consideration. But please give your evidence.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    As far as I know, countries where prostitution is fully legalized often have very strict regulations regarding health check-ups. This is much, much harder to do when there's a criminal element to it, because pimps aren't going to send their secret sex slaves to the doctor for a check-up. When we drive the industry underground, it becomes much harder to regulate it and protect the people involved - the police don't even know who most illegal sex workers are.

    When it's legal, women can do it willingly. This reduces the demand for illegal sex workers, and it means that we can keep track of who's doing it and take all the appropriate measures to look after them.
    But even if we do legalise it, do you really think that these pimps are going to stop doing what they're doing? As long as they're making money from the women they're exploiting, it doesn't really matter to them if it's legal or not.
    Barbastelle
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    (Original post by Zarek)
    This type of argument has been used to avoid confronting other abuses and I think European governments have given the matter serious consideration. But please give your evidence.
    This editorial in the BMJ sums it up. Generally when this argument is used to avoid confronting abuses, it's because the "confrontation" will only make the problem worse.

    (Original post by Barbastelle)
    But even if we do legalise it, do you really think that these pimps are going to stop doing what they're doing? As long as they're making money from the women they're exploiting, it doesn't really matter to them if it's legal or not.
    Barbastelle
    Why would you go to some dangerous pimp down a back alley to get an hour with a probably STI-ridden prostitute when you could go to a safe, official venue where the workers are regularly checked? Most people wouldn't. It doesn't matter if pimps want to keep exploiting women if nobody will pay them to do it.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    This editorial in the BMJ sums it up. Generally when this argument is used to avoid confronting abuses, it's because the "confrontation" will only make the problem worse.



    Why would you go to some dangerous pimp down a back alley to get an hour with a probably STI-ridden prostitute when you could go to a safe, official venue where the workers are regularly checked? Most people wouldn't. It doesn't matter if pimps want to keep exploiting women if nobody will pay them to do it.
    To avoid being known as someone who visits prostitutes? Just because it's legal I don't think attitudes towards it would change at all.
    Barbastelle
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    (Original post by Barbastelle)
    To avoid being known as someone who visits prostitutes? Just because it's legal I don't think attitudes towards it would change at all.
    Barbastelle
    Attitudes do change, because we've already seen it happen in places with more liberal policies regarding prostitution.
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    Questioning the criminalizing of men on the issue of prostitution goes beyond the undeniable matter of the human suffering to be found within the 'industry', that is a very relevant part of the equation but it is inadequate to ignore all else that goes with it. The feminist front has never managed to live with the hard fact that some women want indeed to sell their bodies for money instead of doing something else, that they are not actively coerced into it and that is an obstacle to blaming men entirely for the transaction. For all the willingness to understand their sisters, there is absolutely none to be dispensed to the enemy.

    Even the issue of exploitation is game for a more in-depth analysis, who decided that it is not men who are exploited when a woman takes their money for sex? Lots of blokes (and women) out there do not have a partner and that is not something we can hang on their necks, the sex drive is there to be contended with and if it is possible to go on the net and make a woman (or a man) turn up willing to help him (her) with it... what is so morally criminal about it? Maybe a bit more effort could be put into making it harder to access, is there anything else to be tried before we criminalize people who do so?

    This is unashamedly anti-men politics, let's just pray Dave doesn't hear about it. Brothers, sleep with one eye open and don't be ashamed to fight your ground.
 
 
 
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