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Eu: In or out? Watch

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  • View Poll Results: Should be stay a member or leave?
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    Lol economic future.

    - Paying for Eastern European infrastructure.
    - Wage depression.
    - Massive unemployment.
    - Moving manufacturing to non-Eu countries.
    - Strain on services like the NHS.
    - Housing priority for asylum seekers.
    - Low barrier welfare requirements.
    - TTIP - Privitisation by stealth, unable to nationalise industries like steel.
    - Easy movement from criminals in Eastern Europe, can't deport them easily either.
    - Paying for French farming.
    - Tax evasion.
    - Destruction of small business and communities.

    Not to mention the awful euro and bank bailouts. Europe can't even sort out its own economic problems let alone ours.
    If you can justify any of that then i would believe you. Many of those issues are going to exist regardless of whether we stay in the EU. Some of the issues are solved or reduced by Cameron's deal with the EU, and some are just untrue.

    Virtually all businesses are in favour of remaining in the EU.

    The consequences of leaving the EU could be catastrophic to our economy, or 'economic uncertainty'

    You're suggesting leaving the EU would solve those issues, which isnt true.

    Many of the issues you list are based on immigration. Leaving the EU wont solve that. We would have to set up an EU trade deal, and one of the conditions would be to join the Shengen, so immigration has not been stopped.
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    If you can justify any of that then i would believe you. Many of those issues are going to exist regardless of whether we stay in the EU. Some of the issues are solved or reduced by Cameron's deal with the EU, and some are just untrue.

    Virtually all businesses are in favour of remaining in the EU.

    The consequences of leaving the EU could be catastrophic to our economy, or 'economic uncertainty'

    You're suggesting leaving the EU would solve those issues, which isnt true.

    Many of the issues you list are based on immigration. Leaving the EU wont solve that. We would have to set up an EU trade deal, and one of the conditions would be to join the Shengen, so immigration has not been stopped.
    I can justify it and i'm currently writing a more indepth analysis of it i'll post in time, as for the claim that most business supports it that's not strictly true, for exmaple:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35901811

    Small and medium business is also quite strongly opposed, at the end of the day does it surprise you that business that benefits from EU regulations and corruption is going to prefer to remain a member of it and those that don't benefit won't?

    Economic uncertainty is one of those buzzwords Cameron has been using, when have we ever had economic certainty? 2008? The economy is always uncertain to a degree, and as you have said a lot of issues do depend on immigration and we would have to speak with them about that. The UK is simply too strong to ignore economically, hence the fear campaign.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    I can justify it and i'm currently writing a more indepth analysis of it i'll post in time, as for the claim that most business supports it that's not strictly true, for exmaple:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35901811

    Small and medium business is also quite strongly opposed, at the end of the day does it surprise you that business that benefits from EU regulations and corruption is going to prefer to remain a member of it and those that don't benefit won't?

    Economic uncertainty is one of those buzzwords Cameron has been using, when have we ever had economic certainty? 2008? The economy is always uncertain to a degree, and as you have said a lot of issues do depend on immigration and we would have to speak with them about that. The UK is simply too strong to ignore though to ignore economically, hence the fear campaign.
    Do tag me in the post.

    The red tape is nothing but a shambolic argument in the vote leave campaign, we would still need to have those regulations if we join the trade deal which we will

    In the worst case scenario, the economy would collapse (due to some form of worldwide recession) and we lose our AAA rating since we're not in the EU and have nowhere to keep the AAA rating. Debts would be called back by banks and the government have no choice but to allow banks to collapse since they themselves have acclaimed debt from the world bank. The countries businesses and banks collapse and we enter a deep recession

    However unlikely this is, there are other outcomes that would be detrimental to the economy. Dismissing it all as scaremongering isnt going to hide the fact that there is a lot of economic uncertainty, accelerated by the fact that we dont have the security the EU gives us.
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    I didn't expect the poll to be so evenly split...

    I'm still not entirely sure where I stand. We would definitely suffer economically in the short term after an out vote, but whether it would be worth the risk in the long run I don't know.
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    Do tag me in the post.

    The red tape is nothing but a shambolic argument in the vote leave campaign, we would still need to have those regulations if we join the trade deal which we will

    In the worst case scenario, the economy would collapse (due to some form of worldwide recession) and we lose our AAA rating since we're not in the EU and have nowhere to keep the AAA rating. Debts would be called back by banks and the government have no choice but to allow banks to collapse since they themselves have acclaimed debt from the world bank. The countries businesses and banks collapse and we enter a deep recession

    However unlikely this is, there are other outcomes that would be detrimental to the economy. Dismissing it all as scaremongering isnt going to hide the fact that there is a lot of economic uncertainty, accelerated by the fact that we dont have the security the EU gives us.
    I do agree there would be uncertainty, my point is that we don't really have certainty ever, if we did we would never have a financial crisis to begin with. I don't quite understand the view that our economy would collapse given that trade is a two way street, we buy the things they sell, we could buy them elsewhere if they forced us to, but either way the EU would shoot themselves in the foot doing so, plus we don't just leave overnight we'll have several years to make plans most likely. Our economy is actually bigger than France so if anything we should be the ones bullying them.

    Who speaks about the economic uncertainty of Germany? Are they suddenly going to replace their trading partner overnight. Will the Dutch just go along with the Germans and not trade with us?

    There is by no means uniformity in Brussels despite what they want you to hear, a recent Dutch referendum said they disagreed with actions in Ukraine.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    I do agree there would be uncertainty, my point is that we don't really have certainty ever, if we did we would never have a financial crisis to begin with. I don't quite understand the view that our economy would collapse given that trade is a two way street, we buy the things they sell, we could buy them elsewhere if they forced us to, but either way the EU would shoot themselves in the foot doing so, plus we don't just leave overnight we'll have several years to make plans most likely. Our economy is actually bigger than France so if anything we should be the ones bullying them.

    Who speaks about the economic uncertainty of Germany? Are they suddenly going to replace their trading partner overnight. Will the Dutch just go along with the Germans and not trade with us?

    There is by no means uniformity in Brussels despite what they want you to hear, a recent Dutch referendum said they disagreed with actions in Ukraine.
    My point is there is greater uncertainty if we leave the EU. The circumstance i described is a very real possibility that the leave campaign fail to address.

    Germany, france, they're all irrelevant. They're part of the euro so a comparison cant be made.

    The deal by Cameron means we dont get more involved in political affairs.
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    In.

    We are still recovering from / in a worse situation than the 2008 crash and yet we want to shake up the world again?

    It doesn't make sense to have this vote now when we (worldwide) are still suffering financially.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/...eurozone-banks

    Although the IMF and others have been wrong before. I could include other links but this was the most recent one I found relevant right now.

    It is a very "it depends" situation, we have no idea what the consequence of leaving the EU could be. Although I do think it's ridiculous that older generations are strongly voting Out when the primary impacted will be the younger generations if it all goes wrong.
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    I'm voting leave. National sovereignty actually -is- a big deal to me. As someone who didn't grow up in Britain, I recognize the differences in culture that result in different governments - Frankly, the things that work in downtown Munich don't necessarily work in rural Shropshire.

    The EU has become more and more bureaucratic and overridden more and more of the national sovereignty of their member nations through simple bureaucratic bloat. The immigration problem is just the latest in a long string of issues that is slowly bleeding Britain's right to self-government away to what are basically unelected officials from a foreign government.

    I simply cannot support that. It's too dangerous for the long term.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    In, we gain nothing from leaving, and a 'Brexit' would have a massive impact on the EU and other countries. The world works better when we think internationally and not keeping to ourselves.
    If the world is better when we look out then surely you should be supporting out, the EU is to busy looking in and pretending that Europe is still the centre of the world as they slip away to irrelevance.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If the world is better when we look out then surely you should be supporting out, the EU is to busy looking in and pretending that Europe is still the centre of the world as they slip away to irrelevance.

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    Shocking logic.
    Stop making dishonest arguments, use a bit of actual logic. Joining a multilateral organization and co-operating with neighbors on a daily basis is far less 'looking inwards' than separating yourself off from the world.

    Next you'll be telling me leaving would be great for the NHS and other things you've never cared about.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Shocking logic.
    Stop making dishonest arguments, use a bit of actual logic. Joining a multilateral organization and co-operating with neighbors on a daily basis is far less 'looking inwards' than separating yourself off from the world.

    Next you'll be telling me leaving would be great for the NHS and other things you've never cared about.
    So you mean to be inward looking it is only possible as a state? Funny, because individuals are capable of it, private organisations are capable of it, the EU is capable of it; does this also mean that you are peddling the meassge that if we leave the EU we are going to be that little Island in Northern Europe that nobody dares go near? And time for the bane of your existence, a yes/no question: Corn Laws, yes or no?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So you mean to be inward looking it is only possible as a state? Funny, because individuals are capable of it, private organisations are capable of it, the EU is capable of it; does this also mean that you are peddling the meassge that if we leave the EU we are going to be that little Island in Northern Europe that nobody dares go near? And time for the bane of your existence, a yes/no question: Corn Laws, yes or no?
    If you want to leave the EU that's fine. But don't pretend leaving a multilaterlal, international organization will help us look 'outwards'.

    It's the fakeness of the Brexit arguments which is so sickening. The NHS one especially. Farage wanted to privatise the NHS, now he says we need to leave the EU or else they will umm privatise it.

    Being involved in a major organization and having our say on the social and economic issues of the day IS looking outwards. Closing ourselves off and shutting our borders is not.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If you want to leave the EU that's fine. But don't pretend leaving a multilaterlal, international organization will help us look 'outwards'.

    It's the fakeness of the Brexit arguments which is so sickening. The NHS one especially. Farage wanted to privatise the NHS, now he says we need to leave the EU or else they will umm privatise it.

    Being involved in a major organization and having our say on the social and economic issues of the day IS looking outwards. Closing ourselves off and shutting our borders is not.
    How long does it take to negotiate and sign a multilateral trade deal compared to a bilateral one? How does protectionist trade policy help you look outwards? I see you have once again been halted by that bane of your existence, the yes/no question; Corn Laws, yes or no?

    There is also this wonderful thing that is called "arguing from the perspective of others." I don't really care much about the NHS being kept running as it is, it's not a very good system, that does not mean that I cannot argue for the benefit of those that do believe it is the best thing since sliced bread that its future should be a domestic decision. I don't particularly care about a great deal about some of the worker protections that we have due to the EU, that does not mean I cannot argue that these will stick with us even if we leave because getting rid any time in the near future would be political suicide, just like directly abolishing the NHS.

    Is the In campaign now claiming that leaving the EU will have us closing borders? We only have one open border and that is the border with RoI, other than that we have a controlled border.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    wrong
    Excellent rebuttal, I bow to your prowess

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    I initially didn't pay much attention to the referendum, and a few weeks ago I was hellbent on voting to leave thinking "We can set up our own trade with countries in Europe and outside" and "We have too many immigrants coming in while the EU forces us to take them".

    However, after looking more carefully at the facts, benefits and disadvantages of the EU, the whole vote leave campaign looks to be scaremongering, lying (Take back control of our boarders, we can trade without EU membership, our economy will benefit) and ignorant of the benefits EU membership entails. There are an enormous amount of benefits for EU membership, leaving the EU feels like a step backwards and the economy, travelling in Europe and getting European students/workers will be hampered by leaving. There is very little that could convince me to vote to leave the EU after doing so much reading.
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    (Original post by Eloades11)
    I initially didn't pay much attention to the referendum, and a few weeks ago I was hellbent on voting to leave thinking "We can set up our own trade with countries in Europe and outside" and "We have too many immigrants coming in while the EU forces us to take them".

    However, after looking more carefully at the facts, benefits and disadvantages of the EU, the whole vote leave campaign looks to be scaremongering, lying (Take back control of our boarders, we can trade without EU membership, our economy will benefit) and ignorant of the benefits EU membership entails. There are an enormous amount of benefits for EU membership, leaving the EU feels like a step backwards and the economy, travelling in Europe and getting European students/workers will be hampered by leaving. There is very little that could convince me to vote to leave the EU after doing so much reading.
    You do realise that you don't need to be in the EU to trade with the EU, the Chinese and Americans, for instance, are doing a good job of it, as are smaller economies such as South Korea and Japan

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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Would it tend to be that most people voting leave would be UKIP supporters, or at least right wingers?
    No, i am a strong leave vote and i certaintly wouldnt class myself as right wing
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    If you can justify any of that then i would believe you. Many of those issues are going to exist regardless of whether we stay in the EU. Some of the issues are solved or reduced by Cameron's deal with the EU, and some are just untrue.

    Virtually all businesses are in favour of remaining in the EU.

    The consequences of leaving the EU could be catastrophic to our economy, or 'economic uncertainty'

    You're suggesting leaving the EU would solve those issues, which isnt true.

    Many of the issues you list are based on immigration. Leaving the EU wont solve that. We would have to set up an EU trade deal, and one of the conditions would be to join the Shengen, so immigration has not been stopped.
    Not all , recently 250 businesses want out

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35901811
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    (Original post by TSRFT8)
    Alot of people who are "Leave" only have one reason - "Less immigrants will take the job i do not want to do" Not saying all, however a vast amount have these views.

    Im IN, but each to their own.
    A lot of people who are "Stay" only have one reason - "I will have to spend 20 minutes organising my visit to an EU country" Not saying all, however a vast amount have these views

    Im OUT, but each to their own
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You do realise that you don't need to be in the EU to trade with the EU, the Chinese and Americans, for instance, are doing a good job of it, as are smaller economies such as South Korea and Japan

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That is true, the UK I assume would continue trading with European countries if it were to leave the EU. I don't know much about trading, nor how leaving will affect trading currency. But from what I've gathered, the cost of importing goods will rise upon leaving, making everyday products rise in price. Other countries will be less inclined to trade with us and if prices increase this could affect the pound currency.

    I did hear somewhere VAT was introduced because of EU membership, however my source for this is word of mouth and I would say they're very unreliable so further clarification would be appreciated.
 
 
 
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