Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    The people who don't understand that mass immigration and the undercutting of wages is a problem tend to be those who are never hit by it.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No.
    Poverty, crumbling public services and inequality are caused largely by small staate right wing, neoliberal governments.
    No, they're caused by flooding the labour market, not building housing and not making business attractive to do in the UK, and encouraging the rich and wealthy to leave the UK and deterring investment. Either can be argued so they're no less to blame.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    It could but the standards in this country to become a doctor would have to decrease, perhaps more subsidies to encourage people into the profession, and a certain amount of time they have to work in the UK. Though just paying them more would probably attract more people.
    I mean you need like all A stats to study it at uni so it's understandable why we'd have to import some skilled labour.
    10 people apply for one place to train with those grades


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    Firsty, corporations do not exploit people, they pay the wage that people are willing to accept. Secondly the wage rate in regions is determined by the demand for such labour, and ultimately the supply of labour.
    Immigration of low skilled workers decreases or keeps the current wage rate of such occupations stagnant. The London living wage has only come about because of excessive inflation/costs caused by huge flows of capital and rich folk buying land/property and high immigration. it's a political decision and has nothing to do with supply or demand of labour, however that has been the cause of it being brought about.

    In regional terms, the higher the supply of labour as opposed to demand sets the wage rate, companies simply pay what people will take. People will take this lower wage(ie migrants or british people) because there's a substantial imbalance in the labour market, where the labour market increases in size, people have less options jobs wise and less opportunities for employment, so they are forced to accept the lower wage rate. The more people you have in a certain area, the cheaper production/labour costs are as there's more people to do the job. Look at countries with high populations such as China, China may be becoming very wealthy, but the people aren't as wealthy to represent that, hence why children never see their parent's as they move to cities to work all the time.

    I do dislike the attitude of the middle and upper classes in this country that unemployed people are lazy, most unemployed people would like to have a job and be able to support their families respectively. And the whole attitude of a non English person shouldn't be able to take your job, because even skilled jobs especially in the building trade you can get by on knowing sod all English.
    I'm not going to even go into the whole capitalism vs socialism thing as capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Remember Karl marx was funded and basically lived of his friend Engles whose father was a factory owner..... Essentially you could argue Marx lived of the "exploitation" of others.

    As for it being a lack of education, if everyone was more educated you would find smart people being forced to accept lower/less skilled jobs not suited to their potential and would drive down wages of the middle/middle upper class. The richest people in this country will still become richer, inequality would only close between middle and lower class. Look at the earnings of the past 30 years of each percentile, the poorest are no better off than they were 30 years ago. A combination of high migration leading to stagnant and higher competition for jobs has caused this, you don't have the middle/middle upperclass or upper class worrying about jobs, because quite simply, the supply of labour for their jobs vs demand hasn't increased substantially. Not all people are intelligent, that's partially a good thing if you are intelligent as it means less people can do your job and as such you can demand a higher pay packet. I wish people would honestly have more patriotism in this country for the sake of British people that aren't born intelligent/able bodied.

    Immigrants are the primary cause of these labour market shocks supply wise, the government is to blame however, but the government has no interest in reducing immigration, even if it means the poorest britains will become better off, or the middle class becoming better off because it reduces labour costs and as such costs to running business and government expenditure. Immigration is simply a massive supply side policy. It also helps increase demand for housing, which essentially makes people capital worth more, especially the rich and powerful, they have no interest in the British people but only an interest in their own wealth. Labour won't help the poorest either, since they're a huge fan of mass immigration because it ultimately means more poor people to vote for them, even if they helped cause the housing crises, they can use it as an election promise, the Tories won't either, simply because it keeps costs down for most of their companies that pay them.
    Thanks for making a reply to the earlier points not needed


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    I agree with the OP. The problem is more to do with poor distribution\allocation of funds, bad long-term planning in regards key services and house-building, and the lack of a prearranged plan for economic downturns.
    Even if that were the case it wouldn't preclude mass immigration from also being a problem.
    • Very Important Poster
    Online

    19
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    It could but the standards in this country to become a doctor would have to decrease, perhaps more subsidies to encourage people into the profession, and a certain amount of time they have to work in the UK. Though just paying them more would probably attract more people.
    I mean you need like all A stats to study it at uni so it's understandable why we'd have to import some skilled labour.
    That takes time, so if you took them away the NHS couldnt cope.
    They have two problems, they dont have enough capacity to train enough and they have retention troubles with the Drs they do have. It would cost more money.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    But there in lies the success of right wing parties like the tories and their media buddies. They succesfully manage to persuade poor people to blame other poor people, immigrants and public sectr workers rather than look upwards and blame the government.
    Very true
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Suetonius)
    The people who don't understand that mass immigration and the undercutting of wages is a problem tend to be those who are never hit by it.
    What are you talking about? There is something called a minimum wage. Even if 1,000,000 migrants come to the UK, every company or corporation, by law, are mandated to pay the minimum wage.

    Let us assume that there are no migrants in the UK. Low skilled Brits apply for jobs without any competition from the so-called migrants and get paid 8 pounds per hour. Working 40 hours a week will give you 320 pounds or 1280 pounds per month. In a year you get 15,360 pounds.

    Assuming that you pay 0% tax, you can spend you money as follows.

    Monthly expenses:
    Rent (non-London and modest flat or house share) = 400 pounds
    Bills (phone contract, heating, electricity, water) = 200 pounds
    Food = 180 pounds (about 45 pounds per week)
    Entertainment (if you are inclined) = 200 pounds
    Left-over cash = 300 pounds

    These costs excluded other commitments that may spring up in your home. Imagine, this person decides to save the 300 pounds per month. He gets 3,600 pounds in a year. From this you can see that this person has nothing. I even increased their hourly pay to 8 pounds from about 7.20 per hour. This person will be leaving alone with no family or children (who will hike the bills).

    You see the big problem is that the Government and large companies have destroyed the nation. They make you believe that the reason why your life is pathetic is because of the African migrant or the refugee "radical" fleeing war.

    Please don't believe the lie that you have been fed. Of course, migration should be controlled because of the pressures to infrastructure. But the BS that is being said about jobs is rubbish. If the Government does the right thing of building more homes, demanding the big companies pay their taxes, persecute those rich people dodging their taxes and ensuring that workers get a National Living Wage, maybe, just maybe, life for the poor man on the street may be better.

    My analysis excludes highly-skilled workers such as Doctors, Engineers, Scientists etc, where there is a decline of local people wanting to go into such industries. We can see that with local doctors leaving the NHS for Europe, Australia and Canada after their medical qualifications.

    There are many more points that I want to make on this issue, but I will leave it as this for now.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by MildredMalone)
    I haven't seen any posts recently about migrants taking jobs. I have, however, seen plenty about the migrant rape crisis, which is a problem.
    Rape is committed by both locals and migrants.

    How many migrant rape cases have you seen? Now, compare it to the number of migrants in the UK or indeed Europe and make your conclusions on how tiny the numbers actually are.

    You see the media are your eyes and ears. They decide what you see, watch, read and know. A stupid rapist commits a hideous crime and they say, "Look! they are all like that" and you believe.

    One of the biggest issues of the migration debate is how one-sided it often is. You don't see stories of the British-Indian doctor, who performed a critical heart surgery that saved a 7 year old boy's life and many others after him. You don't see the Nigerian Engineer, who came up with a brilliant idea to reduce energy consumption in his company to save the environment. You even don't know that someone like Albert Einstein was a refugee, who fled war and persecution, and revolutionized Science.

    Yes, I do agree that excess is not good and there needs to be control. However, the debate on migration matter is so flawed that there is a xenophobic undertone to the discourse.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Can y'all keep it concise and succinct so we can read it quickly? damn
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    Thanks for making a reply to the earlier points not needed


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Don't hide behind another poster.
    Ill ask you again, if immigration causes lower wages then why does Norfolk, which has virtually no immigration not have higher wages than London which has huge levels of immigration?

    Your theory in real life doesn't work because you don't factor in human and social elements.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Don't hide behind another poster.
    Ill ask you again, if immigration causes lower wages then why does Norfolk, which has virtually no immigration not have higher wages than London which has huge levels of immigration?

    Your theory in real life doesn't work because you don't factor in human and social elements.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    He already answered you


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    Firsty, corporations do not exploit people, they pay the wage that people are willing to accept. Secondly the wage rate in regions is determined by the demand for such labour, and ultimately the supply of labour.
    Immigration of low skilled workers decreases or keeps the current wage rate of such occupations stagnant. The London living wage has only come about because of excessive inflation/costs caused by huge flows of capital and rich folk buying land/property and high immigration. it's a political decision and has nothing to do with supply or demand of labour, however that has been the cause of it being brought about.

    In regional terms, the higher the supply of labour as opposed to demand sets the wage rate, companies simply pay what people will take. People will take this lower wage(ie migrants or british people) because there's a substantial imbalance in the labour market, where the labour market increases in size, people have less options jobs wise and less opportunities for employment, so they are forced to accept the lower wage rate. The more people you have in a certain area, the cheaper production/labour costs are as there's more people to do the job. Look at countries with high populations such as China, China may be becoming very wealthy, but the people aren't as wealthy to represent that, hence why children never see their parent's as they move to cities to work all the time.

    I do dislike the attitude of the middle and upper classes in this country that unemployed people are lazy, most unemployed people would like to have a job and be able to support their families respectively. And the whole attitude of a non English person shouldn't be able to take your job, because even skilled jobs especially in the building trade you can get by on knowing sod all English.
    I'm not going to even go into the whole capitalism vs socialism thing as capitalism is the best economical system in the world. Remember Karl marx was funded and basically lived of his friend Engles whose father was a factory owner..... Essentially you could argue Marx lived of the "exploitation" of others.

    As for it being a lack of education, if everyone was more educated you would find smart people being forced to accept lower/less skilled jobs not suited to their potential and would drive down wages of the middle/middle upper class. The richest people in this country will still become richer, inequality would only close between middle and lower class. Look at the earnings of the past 30 years of each percentile, the poorest are no better off than they were 30 years ago. A combination of high migration leading to stagnant and higher competition for jobs has caused this, you don't have the middle/middle upperclass or upper class worrying about jobs, because quite simply, the supply of labour for their jobs vs demand hasn't increased substantially. Not all people are intelligent, that's partially a good thing if you are intelligent as it means less people can do your job and as such you can demand a higher pay packet. I wish people would honestly have more patriotism in this country for the sake of British people that aren't born intelligent/able bodied.

    Immigrants are the primary cause of these labour market shocks supply wise, the government is to blame however, but the government has no interest in reducing immigration, even if it means the poorest britains will become better off, or the middle class becoming better off because it reduces labour costs and as such costs to running business and government expenditure. Immigration is simply a massive supply side policy. It also helps increase demand for housing, which essentially makes people capital worth more, especially the rich and powerful, they have no interest in the British people but only an interest in their own wealth. Labour won't help the poorest either, since they're a huge fan of mass immigration because it ultimately means more poor people to vote for them, even if they helped cause the housing crises, they can use it as an election promise, the Tories won't either, simply because it keeps costs down for most of their companies that pay them.
    Tripe. Pure tripe.
    GCSE economics stuff at best.
    Less immigration does not equal higher wages. If it did Norfolk would have the highest wages in the country, north korea would have the highest wages in the world...

    Corporations will continue to pay as little as they can to workers. Ir the minimum wage. There will always be people desperate for jobs, immigrants or not and corporations will always be able to get away with exploiting people, taking advanatge of their poverty to pay low wages.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    He already answered you


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    No he has not. And im asking you. Why does norfolk, a place with next to no immigration have low wages?

    Your point was that less immigration increases wages automatically, I've shown that not to be the case. You have no idea so you are hiding behind another poster.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No he has not. And im asking you. Why does norfolk, a place with next to no immigration have low wages?

    Your point was that less immigration increases wages automatically, I've shown that not to be the case. You have no idea so you are hiding behind another poster.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I'm not hiding behind anyone, he answered you and I agree with him there's no point typing it out again.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    I'm sorry I don't know much about the economy of Norfolk lol.

    I do know about supply and demand though


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I assume you'll also know, therefore, how the labour market works less according to the basic laws of supply and demand than any other market, and thus understand how inadequate a knowledge of the cereal-packet economics of supply and demand is for understanding this issue.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paul514)
    I'm not hiding behind anyone, he answered you and I agree with him there's no point typing it out again.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    You are hiding.
    He hasn't answered me. I've read his reply and nowhere does he address why in places like Norfolk, where there is no immigration are wages low. Nowhere.

    Would you care to tell me his response to hat then if he told me?

    You don't know, you realise you're wrong so you're hiding behind another poster. Economics isn't an exact science which you can just apply simple formulas to.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You are hiding.
    He hasn't answered me. I've read his reply and nowhere does he address why in places like Norfolk, where there is no immigration are wages low. Nowhere.

    Would you care to tell me his response to hat then if he told me?

    You don't know, you realise you're wrong so you're hiding behind another poster. Economics isn't an exact science which you can just apply simple formulas to.
    Ok I'm hiding whatever


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kabbage)
    I've seen a lot of posts about how immigrants are taking our jobs and how the British end up unemployed. This is wrong on so many levels mostly because people refuse to look on both sides of the argument.

    It's clear that these jobs are always on low pay jobs that don't require a qualification. I haven't seen an immigrant with a medical degree ever come from another country and become a doctor in a British hospital. I have friends who moved here and who's parents have qualifications, however find it very difficult to get a job in their field and end up taking low paid jobs.

    The jobs that these immigrants are taking are low paid jobs, so the problem isn't the immigrants, it's the lack of education in this country.

    Additionally, immigrants tend to make jobs. One of my friends immigrated here and set up a business which ended up employing hundreds of people. Immigrants can be job creators.
    The jobs that these immigrants are taking are low paid precisely because there are so many immigrants taking them. You don't seem to understand cause and effect.

    Go back to the seventies, eighties and before and a British worker could make a "comfortable living" as a forklift driver in a factory. Those jobs are now taken my immigrants at wages that have been driven into the ground.

    Immigrants drive down wages.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Don't hide behind another poster.
    Ill ask you again, if immigration causes lower wages then why does Norfolk, which has virtually no immigration not have higher wages than London which has huge levels of immigration?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Well, duh! Because Norfolk is sparsely populated agricultural county with very few jobs. Centers of industry and commerce are few and far between.
 
 
 
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.