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    (Original post by BaronK)
    I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you but unfortunately I don't. You'll have to leave it to the exit negotiators and future governments, but there will no doubt be a plenty.

    Staying in the EU is how we are. 10 years ago if we had this referendum who would have foresaw the Lisbon treaty, the Migrant crisis, go back 20/5 Maastricht treaty and the euro etc. EU has changed significantly and it will only continue to do so, if leaving is crossing your fingers and jumping off a cliff then staying is crossing your fingers and hoping you don't hit a land mine.
    So you don't know what will happen if we leave the European Union. So you're approach is jump off a cliff and cross your fingers. The European Union has changed but the change has never been as great as the change of not being part of it at all.

    And here's some news, the migrant crisis won't go away if we leave the Eu.

    You're the one advocating a huge change you should be able to tell me what will happen when we leave. Truth is you have no idea and are just hoping for the best. Recklessly wanting to change without knowing what you want to change to.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    ckfeister "Ok so, here reality.

    £350 million a week? Nahhh.. what if its not a free trade deal? Also, some of that actually comes BACK to UK "

    SMH!!!

    You never want to improve anything do you? It's a scandal that we don't get all of it back!

    Is it that you do not trust the UK to spend that money, that you think the EU is better off taking our money and giving us half back?

    Remain option:
    It's like going to school, giving your mate 5 quid and asking for £2.5 back to spend. But, you also can't go to china's shop, or India's, or Brazil, or any others bar a few. There are also rules you have to follow btw , the teachers will make those.
    Leave option:
    Or, if you beleive in brexit you can keep the £5 and go to any shop you want, including the EU shop. The rules you follow are made by an eleted student council.

    Ty for the laugh, your logic is great btw, nice try.
    The money that goes in is spent in aid for the Eastern western world who is repairing from the problem that USSR created to improve their standard of living upto the rich nations of Europe. We are a rich nation and should do our role in the Union, we are NOT an Empire owning 25% of the world anymore, no one will give a sht about 60m people on an island.
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    (Original post by BaronK)
    Staying in is an equally sized "step into the dark". The EU is vastly different to what it was 10/20/30 years ago.



    Lower pound value's good.
    Oh yes, so good.
    Here an example how good.

    $2 = £1 in 2008 before crisis, a laptop worth $700 would cost £350, now thats its $1.40 = £1 lets check..

    700/1.4 = £500 so due to the lower pound you have to pay 500 - 350 = £150 extra making our standard of living LOWER. It is also at a record low and unemployment is rising wakey.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    The money that goes in is spent in aid for the Eastern western world who is repairing from the problem that USSR created to improve their standard of living upto the rich nations of Europe. We are a rich nation and should do our role in the Union, we are NOT an Empire owning 25% of the world anymore, no one will give a sht about 60m people on an island.
    It's not the responsibility of British people to prop up unsustainable developments and social programmes in Eastern Europe who have next to no links with us when we have financial issues and failing infrastructure in this country and have the second largest foreign aid budget in the world already.

    People certainly will 'give a sht' about the world's 5th largest economy with a permanent seat on the UN security council, elite armed forces and nuclear weapons with almost unparalleled cultural clout.. I don't know why you feel the need to bash the UK to try and convince people to stay in, it's like an abusive husband "You're not good enough" etcetera.
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    It's not the responsibility of British people to prop up unsustainable developments and social programmes in Eastern Europe who have next to no links with us when we have financial issues and failing infrastructure in this country and have the second largest foreign aid budget in the world already.

    People certainly will 'give a sht' about the world's 5th largest economy with a permanent seat on the UN security council, elite armed forces and nuclear weapons with almost unparalleled cultural clout.. I don't know why you feel the need to bash the UK to try and convince people to stay in, it's like an abusive husband "You're not good enough" etcetera.
    Ok, start of if you was living there wouldn't you hope for support from countries when your IN the Europe? Not just left there to fix yourself when your struggling?

    Why would people 'give a sht' about the 5th largest economy if we are going to go into a deep recession when leaving, which will drop up OUT of top 10, then once we pick up again at 2.7% we maybe at like 25th richest and 2.7% is still BELOW world average so we will go back UP we will PERMEANTLY down. So, now tell me how are we going to be relevent with only 60m people, most likely a lost generation and decreasing population due to the struggles.. hm? China doesn't have access to EU anymore with 500m people its mad and not going to bother with UK government.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Ok, start of if you was living there wouldn't you hope for support from countries when your IN the Europe? Not just left there to fix yourself when your struggling?

    Why would people 'give a sht' about the 5th largest economy if we are going to go into a deep recession when leaving, which will drop up OUT of top 10, then once we pick up again at 2.7% we maybe at like 25th richest and 2.7% is still BELOW world average so we will go back UP we will PERMEANTLY down. So, now tell me how are we going to be relevent with only 60m people, most likely a lost generation and decreasing population due to the struggles.. hm? China doesn't have access to EU anymore with 500m people its mad and not going to bother with UK government.
    This is the whole project fear thing you've got going on. I don't blame you, the media has been quite persistent. Do you read the Guardian by any chance?

    There's no reason to believe Britain would go into recession. Even the most biased pro-EU research has claimed that the UK economy would be around 6% smaller in 2030 than it would have been if it remained a member. All that means is that the growth would be slower, and as I say, this is a biased pro-eu claim anyway.

    There will be no decline in population, no lost decade. Britain is a global power with a strong economy powered by finance, pharmaceuticals, aerospace, petrochemicals, agriculture and tourism. These apocalyptic style events you've said are just completely unfounded I'm glad to say. Being a member of the EU didn't make Britain rich.

    If China wouldn't be interested in a Britain not in the EU, why has it got a free-trade deal with Iceland, a country that is not in the EU and has half a million people. Britain has 120x the population of Iceland and a 1000x more to offer.

    Please, do some proper research, do some real research about this country and realise that if Australia and Canada and South Korea and Norway and Israel and New Zealand and Japan can all thrive outside of a political union that Britain (who is larger and richer and more economically diverse than all of the former*) can thrive too.

    EDIT: *not Japan,oops. Point still stands though. Japan is fine outside of a political union.
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    This is the whole project fear thing you've got going on. I don't blame you, the media has been quite persistent. Do you read the Guardian by any chance?

    There's no reason to believe Britain would go into recession. Even the most biased pro-EU research has claimed that the UK economy would be around 6% smaller in 2030 than it would have been if it remained a member. All that means is that the growth would be slower, and as I say, this is a biased pro-eu claim anyway.

    There will be no decline in population, no lost decade. Britain is a global power with a strong economy powered by finance, pharmaceuticals, aerospace, petrochemicals, agriculture and tourism. These apocalyptic style events you've said are just completely unfounded I'm glad to say. Being a member of the EU didn't make Britain rich.

    If China wouldn't be interested in a Britain not in the EU, why has it got a free-trade deal with Iceland, a country that is not in the EU and has half a million people. Britain has 120x the population of Iceland and a 1000x more to offer.

    Please, do some proper research, do some real research about this country and realise that if Australia and Canada and South Korea and Norway and Israel and New Zealand and Japan can all thrive outside of a political union that Britain (who is larger and richer and more economically diverse than all of the former) can thrive too.
    No I only look at BBC News, nothing else as its neutral but I also check the facts before beliving BBC too, UK global power would go down with the recession we'll have in the SHORT-TERM.
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    (Original post by BaronK)
    NATO isn't a state.
    Neithers the EU....yet.

    In any case, sovereignty in its most understood sense, is long dead. Blame the free market.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    No I only look at BBC News, nothing else as its neutral but I also check the facts before beliving BBC too, UK global power would go down with the recession we'll have in the SHORT-TERM.
    I feel as though you're more of an undecided voter swayed by the fear campaign. Just out of interest, if there wasn't an economic consequence due to leaving the EU (which I personally don't think there would be) would you still vote to remain? Are there other reasons why you'd want to stay in the EU otherwise? Are there any pro-Brexit arguments you agree with?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    In. Let's not take a step into the dark and cross our fingers.
    aren't all important decisions one that have elements of risk to them though? why are you supporting safe mediocrity? are you satisfied with how the EU operates over the UK at the moment?
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    I feel as though you're more of an undecided voter swayed by the fear campaign. Just out of interest, if there wasn't an economic consequence due to leaving the EU (which I personally don't think there would be) would you still vote to remain? Are there other reasons why you'd want to stay in the EU otherwise? Are there any pro-Brexit arguments you agree with?
    I would vote to leave if economic wasn't a problem.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Neithers the EU....yet.

    In any case, sovereignty in its most understood sense, is long dead. Blame the free market.
    well...the EU kind of is a state though, isn't it - it's a confederation. a confederation is a form of state.
    the only thing it lacks is its own independent arm of execution
    but the member states do that for it *and* it has obvious ambitions for an army.
    so basically, it *is* a state. it has a parliament. it has an administration/civil service. it has leaders. it has a supreme court. it has a legal system. it makes treaties with other states. it has the same representations as states in bodies like the WTO. it has a flag and an anthem. it has a border policy. like I said, the only thing missing is a police/army, and that's a very superficial necessity for a state when its constituent sections have their own police/army forces.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    I would vote to leave if economic wasn't a problem.
    Well all I can do is ask you to have faith in the British people and our economy. Britain has outperformed all other EU members these last few years and I think that's in spite of us being a member of the EU, not because of it. I certainly think that we need to think less about how much money the elites at the top will be earning and focus on the issues that impact our day to day lives.

    Can you really bare to live in an EU where Turkey is a member? as it certainly will be within 10 years.

    Anyway, see you around.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    The money that goes in is spent in aid for the Eastern western world who is repairing from the problem that USSR created to improve their standard of living upto the rich nations of Europe. We are a rich nation and should do our role in the Union, we are NOT an Empire owning 25% of the world anymore, no one will give a sht about 60m people on an island.
    So we need to give 5-6 billion a year away ONTOP of our foreign aid already? You've gone mad.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Sorry, I'm going to have to correct you here.

    1) The loss of jobs argument has been debunked over and over. Those jobs mentioned are reliant on trade not on the EU. If we leave the EU then the trade will switch to another source so there's really no threat there. Besides, even if what the in people are fearmongering about could actually happen, it'll be just as damaging for the EU as it is for us so they're unlikely to cut us out of the free trade union. .
    By your own words, the EU could cut us out since they can just find some new sources.
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    It seems to me that what vote leave is saying

    Trade: we'll take a free trade deal with the EU where we'll pay in and get no say. We'll get a superior trade deal with existing partners and new ones besides (in under four years)

    Law: we'll keep the vast majority of the laws apart from the environmental ones

    Immigration: (various- but open Europe has shown that it will likely rise in order to compete)

    Costs: we'll continue to fund everything despite no substantial argument that we'll keep to the same level of growth let alone improve.

    Future: we'll be a high tech Atlantic utopia (despite most research and innovation coming from EU and lack of funding due to above)

    Foreign affairs: we want to embrace the wider world who incidentally all hate us because they want is to stay in the EU



    Gee, what a tempting offer.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    So we need to give 5-6 billion a year away ONTOP of our foreign aid already? You've gone mad.
    Thats to other countries...
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    aren't all important decisions one that havje elements of risk to them though? why are you supporting safe mediocrity? are you satisfied with how the EU operates over the UK at the moment?
    Yes I am quite satisfied with the European Union.
    It's not perfect but does a fine job of protecting workers rights and allows us to have a seat at the table of a major international organisation.

    And there has been no viable alternative put forward.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes I am quite satisfied with the European Union.
    It's not perfect but does a fine job of protecting workers rights and allows us to have a seat at the table of a major international organisation.

    And there has been no viable alternative put forward.
    at least concede that these "workers rights" came via authoritarian decree. no UK representation led to their creation. the commission handed it down to us.

    and if you're saying that it's justifiable that you get your preferred policies via dictates, I think you're kind of in favour of any kind of diktat so long as it suits you. that's kind of unprincipled, isn't it? I don't think the body of laws in the UK are ideal at all to my political principles, but you know what? at least we have *some* means of control over them. and that's the thing - it's preferable to have a bad parliament to a good dictatorship - because one day, that dictatorship might be horrific, whereas at least the parliament can change for the better in the future.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    Oh yes, so good.
    Here an example how good.

    $2 = £1 in 2008 before crisis, a laptop worth $700 would cost £350, now thats its $1.40 = £1 lets check..

    700/1.4 = £500 so due to the lower pound you have to pay 500 - 350 = £150 extra making our standard of living LOWER. It is also at a record low and unemployment is rising wakey.
    Or more importantly, British goods become cheaper overseas.
 
 
 
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