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National Union of Students elects Malia Bouattia as president. Watch

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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    This is the best result possible, the NUS will now fall even faster than previously predicted. We are already seeing universities calling for disaffiliation. It hasn't even been a day.

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    Calls for disaffiliating from the NUS go back a way though, they are a fairly regular thing over the years and often don't amount to much, or don't last.
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    The key thing in this debate is, does disliking Zionism = anti-semitism?

    The PR from the Israeli right and their supporters abroad is that they are one on the same.

    To many of the left, they are very different things.

    The problem is that it's hard to sort out what people's motives are in the middle of it all. There are anti-semites amongst the Left who take an anti-zionist line merely as a pretext. There are also supporters of Israel who blanket every charge against the Israeli government or Israeli actions as anti-semitism. Both are surely wrong.

    We can't easily tell if the new NUS president is only politically anti-zionist and not aligning herself with anti-Jewish tendencies, but her previous statements do tend to indicate that her anti-zionism is at minimum, unsophisticated. From what I've been able to read of her positions outside of the Daily Mail and the Torygraph, it would also seem like she's busy back-pedalling various fairly anti-semitic sounding things she's said in the past, but on the whole, her position is anti-Zionist rather than anti-Jewish as such.

    In the end it's all down to how you view anti-Zionism. You either view it as being anti-racist and view the Israeli state as racist due to its colonialist expulsion and mistreatment of native Palestinians, or you view it as wrong because after the Holocaust, the Jews needed a safe homeland and it is traditionally 'their land of Israel'.

    As everyone pretty much falls into one of those two camps and it's extremely hard to completely resolve either position as totally correct, there is going to continue to be fierce debate between them. Seems like not the right thing to disaffiliate over to me.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    it would also seem like she's busy back-pedalling various fairly anti-semitic sounding things she's said in the past, but on the whole, her position is anti-Zionist rather than anti-Jewish as such.
    how many time can a person say ****** before being called a racist

    it is fact she has spouted anti-semitic rhetoric and called for the use of violence in her cause

    http://thetab.com/2016/04/19/watch-f...struggle-87052

    If this were a white male he would have been crucified by public opinion (and rightly so) not made head of the NUS
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The key thing in this debate is, does disliking Zionism = anti-semitism?
    No it's not. I've got plenty of criticisms of Israel, it doesn't make me a self hating Jew.
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    Of course there are plenty of Afro-Arabs who live in Northern Africa and Southeastern Africa, such as the Haratin people of the Sahara who have dark complexions ('Haratin' literally translates to 'black) who speak Berber and Arabic.
    Yes, I know about them; some are still held as slaves (by light-skinned Moslems) in some areas. They are descended either from black slaves imported from elsewhere in Africa, or or from black Africans who moved in during the neolithic period. They aren't racially either Arab or Berber, despite their languages.

    We have the answer to my question, though. She is black only under the NUS's off-piste definition of the word.

    I'm still waiting for our friend TheArtofProtest to come back and explain why he thinks most Palestinians are not Arabs, and to show us some black Arabs, but I suspect he won't appear again.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Calls for disaffiliating from the NUS go back a way though, they are a fairly regular thing over the years and often don't amount to much, or don't last.
    Not on such a mass scale. There has been a growing resentment of the NUS as they don't represent students. This could be the catalyste for some real reform or it could spell disaster for the NUS.

    *Jazz Hands*
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    (Original post by Xelfrost)
    No it's not. I've got plenty of criticisms of Israel, it doesn't make me a self hating Jew.
    I'm not clear what you mean, what difference does it make to the argument about does anti-Zionism equal anti-Semitism for you to not be a self-hating Jew?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm not clear what you mean, what difference does it make to the argument about does anti-Zionism equal anti-Semitism for you to not be a self-hating Jew?
    Is a homosexual who is against same-sex marriage a homophobe? Is a Moslem who is against the implementation of sharia law in the UK an Islamophobe?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Is a homosexual who is against same-sex marriage a homophobe? Is a Moslem who is against the implementation of sharia law in the UK an Islamophobe?
    Of course not. How does that help with the point?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course not. How does that help with the point?
    Is an anti-Zionist Jew an anti-semite?

    Does that help to make it clearer?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Yes, I know about them; some are still held as slaves (by light-skinned Moslems) in some areas. They are descended either from black slaves imported from elsewhere in Africa, or or from black Africans who moved in during the neolithic period. They aren't racially either Arab or Berber, despite their languages.
    Anyone could tell you that the term 'Arab' is an ethnic identification and not a genetic racial bracket. Whilst there are haplogroups which stretch back towards indigenous Arabians, the modern day understanding of the term Arab is based from a collection of cultural, regional or national, and - more importantly - linguistic divisions. Even the Arab League defines 'Arab' as: "a person whose first language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples."
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    the Arab League defines 'Arab' as: "a person whose first language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples."
    They think the whole of the southern Mediterranean shoreline is inhabited by Arabs then, regardless of ethnic origin, which is plainly ridiculous. I was asking the question in a more commonsense than political sense. This woman is clearly not black - very slightly brown is the darkest one could venture. Pretty well spot on for a Berber or an Arab.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Is an anti-Zionist Jew an anti-semite?

    Does that help to make it clearer?
    No. I was suggesting that there was error both in the argument frequently put forward by the Israelis that anti-Zionism equals anti-semitism and also in the argument often put forward on the left that they are never being anti-semitic when being anti-Zionist.

    Consideration of the position of special groups within the wider debate, like the ideology of Jews living outside Israel, is in my experience often used by the Israelis and their supporters on the right to blow confusion into the issue. Not all Jews internationally support all Israeli government policies, but the Likud would like to equate that with "self-hating" as if Jews must by definition be Zionists, which is kind of racist in itself, to take it to the extreme.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The key thing in this debate is, does disliking Zionism = anti-semitism?

    The PR from the Israeli right and their supporters abroad is that they are one on the same.

    To many of the left, they are very different things.

    The problem is that it's hard to sort out what people's motives are in the middle of it all. There are anti-semites amongst the Left who take an anti-zionist line merely as a pretext. There are also supporters of Israel who blanket every charge against the Israeli government or Israeli actions as anti-semitism. Both are surely wrong.

    We can't easily tell if the new NUS president is only politically anti-zionist and not aligning herself with anti-Jewish tendencies, but her previous statements do tend to indicate that her anti-zionism is at minimum, unsophisticated. From what I've been able to read of her positions outside of the Daily Mail and the Torygraph, it would also seem like she's busy back-pedalling various fairly anti-semitic sounding things she's said in the past, but on the whole, her position is anti-Zionist rather than anti-Jewish as such.

    In the end it's all down to how you view anti-Zionism. You either view it as being anti-racist and view the Israeli state as racist due to its colonialist expulsion and mistreatment of native Palestinians, or you view it as wrong because after the Holocaust, the Jews needed a safe homeland and it is traditionally 'their land of Israel'.

    As everyone pretty much falls into one of those two camps and it's extremely hard to completely resolve either position as totally correct, there is going to continue to be fierce debate between them. Seems like not the right thing to disaffiliate over to me.
    That's a false dichotomy.

    The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

    Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes....
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    Glad my student union isn't part of NUS anymore - hasn't been for a few years.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    That's a false dichotomy.

    The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

    Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes....
    No, also needs a physical disability and she extra mental ones to tick more boxes too

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    (Original post by generallee)
    That's a false dichotomy.

    The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

    Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes....
    She denies she's anti-semitic, so the argument is about to what extent we believe her.

    Reading back through past statements by her, it's pretty clear she is anti-Zionist to the extent that she confuses anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but then again, so do the Israeli right and their supporters.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    She denies she's anti-semitic, so the argument is about to what extent we believe her.

    Reading back through past statements by her, it's pretty clear she is anti-Zionist to the extent that she confuses anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but then again, so do the Israeli right and their supporters.
    She is not just some random supporter now. She is the head of the NUS. Does that not concern you. Further more she was voted in at a conference where they were cheering about not supporting the Holocaust Memorial Day because it wasn't "inclusive".

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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    She is not just some random supporter now. She is the head of the NUS. Does that not concern you. Further more she was voted in at a conference where they were cheering about not supporting the Holocaust Memorial Day because it wasn't "inclusive".

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    Initially, I heard about them cheering (or is it jazz-handing now?) not supporting Holocaust Memorial Day, but tbh, I think in this case, they aren't being outrageously idiotic. I listened to the speech, and it was more focussed on how other atrocities should not be ignored, such as the Rwandan genocide, and that there should be a Genocide Memorial Day to remember all genocides. Tbh I agree with this.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    Initially, I heard about them cheering (or is it jazz-handing now?) not supporting Holocaust Memorial Day, but tbh, I think in this case, they aren't being outrageously idiotic. I listened to the speech, and it was more focussed on how other atrocities should not be ignored, such as the Rwandan genocide, and that there should be a Genocide Memorial Day to remember all genocides. Tbh I agree with this.
    But at the same time it was a motion not to recognise HMD.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...-of-the-lefts/

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