The Student Room Group

National Union of Students elects Malia Bouattia as president.

Scroll to see replies

Original post by Fullofsurprises
The key thing in this debate is, does disliking Zionism = anti-semitism?


No it's not. I've got plenty of criticisms of Israel, it doesn't make me a self hating Jew.
Original post by spacepirate-James
Of course there are plenty of Afro-Arabs who live in Northern Africa and Southeastern Africa, such as the Haratin people of the Sahara who have dark complexions ('Haratin' literally translates to 'black) who speak Berber and Arabic.


Yes, I know about them; some are still held as slaves (by light-skinned Moslems) in some areas. They are descended either from black slaves imported from elsewhere in Africa, or or from black Africans who moved in during the neolithic period. They aren't racially either Arab or Berber, despite their languages.

We have the answer to my question, though. She is black only under the NUS's off-piste definition of the word.

I'm still waiting for our friend TheArtofProtest to come back and explain why he thinks most Palestinians are not Arabs, and to show us some black Arabs, but I suspect he won't appear again.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Calls for disaffiliating from the NUS go back a way though, they are a fairly regular thing over the years and often don't amount to much, or don't last.


Not on such a mass scale. There has been a growing resentment of the NUS as they don't represent students. This could be the catalyste for some real reform or it could spell disaster for the NUS.

*Jazz Hands*
Original post by Xelfrost
No it's not. I've got plenty of criticisms of Israel, it doesn't make me a self hating Jew.


I'm not clear what you mean, what difference does it make to the argument about does anti-Zionism equal anti-Semitism for you to not be a self-hating Jew?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I'm not clear what you mean, what difference does it make to the argument about does anti-Zionism equal anti-Semitism for you to not be a self-hating Jew?


Is a homosexual who is against same-sex marriage a homophobe? Is a Moslem who is against the implementation of sharia law in the UK an Islamophobe?
Original post by Good bloke
Is a homosexual who is against same-sex marriage a homophobe? Is a Moslem who is against the implementation of sharia law in the UK an Islamophobe?


Of course not. How does that help with the point?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Of course not. How does that help with the point?


Is an anti-Zionist Jew an anti-semite?

Does that help to make it clearer?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Good bloke
Yes, I know about them; some are still held as slaves (by light-skinned Moslems) in some areas. They are descended either from black slaves imported from elsewhere in Africa, or or from black Africans who moved in during the neolithic period. They aren't racially either Arab or Berber, despite their languages.


Anyone could tell you that the term 'Arab' is an ethnic identification and not a genetic racial bracket. Whilst there are haplogroups which stretch back towards indigenous Arabians, the modern day understanding of the term Arab is based from a collection of cultural, regional or national, and - more importantly - linguistic divisions. Even the Arab League defines 'Arab' as: "a person whose first language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples."
Original post by spacepirate-James
the Arab League defines 'Arab' as: "a person whose first language is Arabic, who lives in an Arabic speaking country, who is in sympathy with the aspirations of the Arabic speaking peoples."


They think the whole of the southern Mediterranean shoreline is inhabited by Arabs then, regardless of ethnic origin, which is plainly ridiculous. I was asking the question in a more commonsense than political sense. This woman is clearly not black - very slightly brown is the darkest one could venture. Pretty well spot on for a Berber or an Arab.
Original post by Good bloke
Is an anti-Zionist Jew an anti-semite?

Does that help to make it clearer?


No. I was suggesting that there was error both in the argument frequently put forward by the Israelis that anti-Zionism equals anti-semitism and also in the argument often put forward on the left that they are never being anti-semitic when being anti-Zionist.

Consideration of the position of special groups within the wider debate, like the ideology of Jews living outside Israel, is in my experience often used by the Israelis and their supporters on the right to blow confusion into the issue. Not all Jews internationally support all Israeli government policies, but the Likud would like to equate that with "self-hating" as if Jews must by definition be Zionists, which is kind of racist in itself, to take it to the extreme.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The key thing in this debate is, does disliking Zionism = anti-semitism?

The PR from the Israeli right and their supporters abroad is that they are one on the same.

To many of the left, they are very different things.

The problem is that it's hard to sort out what people's motives are in the middle of it all. There are anti-semites amongst the Left who take an anti-zionist line merely as a pretext. There are also supporters of Israel who blanket every charge against the Israeli government or Israeli actions as anti-semitism. Both are surely wrong.

We can't easily tell if the new NUS president is only politically anti-zionist and not aligning herself with anti-Jewish tendencies, but her previous statements do tend to indicate that her anti-zionism is at minimum, unsophisticated. From what I've been able to read of her positions outside of the Daily Mail and the Torygraph, it would also seem like she's busy back-pedalling various fairly anti-semitic sounding things she's said in the past, but on the whole, her position is anti-Zionist rather than anti-Jewish as such.

In the end it's all down to how you view anti-Zionism. You either view it as being anti-racist and view the Israeli state as racist due to its colonialist expulsion and mistreatment of native Palestinians, or you view it as wrong because after the Holocaust, the Jews needed a safe homeland and it is traditionally 'their land of Israel'.

As everyone pretty much falls into one of those two camps and it's extremely hard to completely resolve either position as totally correct, there is going to continue to be fierce debate between them. Seems like not the right thing to disaffiliate over to me.


That's a false dichotomy.

The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes.... :biggrin:
Glad my student union isn't part of NUS anymore - hasn't been for a few years.
Original post by generallee
That's a false dichotomy.

The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes.... :biggrin:


No, also needs a physical disability and she extra mental ones to tick more boxes too

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by generallee
That's a false dichotomy.

The NUS Prez is both an anti Zionist AND an an anti Semite.

Also it is beyond parody that she is a "black" Muslim woman. Just waiting for her to announce herself as a Trans Gender Lesbian and she will tick ALL the boxes.... :biggrin:


She denies she's anti-semitic, so the argument is about to what extent we believe her.

Reading back through past statements by her, it's pretty clear she is anti-Zionist to the extent that she confuses anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but then again, so do the Israeli right and their supporters.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
She denies she's anti-semitic, so the argument is about to what extent we believe her.

Reading back through past statements by her, it's pretty clear she is anti-Zionist to the extent that she confuses anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but then again, so do the Israeli right and their supporters.


She is not just some random supporter now. She is the head of the NUS. Does that not concern you. Further more she was voted in at a conference where they were cheering about not supporting the Holocaust Memorial Day because it wasn't "inclusive".

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Mathemagicien
Initially, I heard about them cheering (or is it jazz-handing now?) not supporting Holocaust Memorial Day, but tbh, I think in this case, they aren't being outrageously idiotic. I listened to the speech, and it was more focussed on how other atrocities should not be ignored, such as the Rwandan genocide, and that there should be a Genocide Memorial Day to remember all genocides. Tbh I agree with this.


But at the same time it was a motion not to recognise HMD.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/04/21/calling-out-the-holocaust-is-the-logical-end-point-of-the-lefts/

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Fullofsurprises
She denies she's anti-semitic, so the argument is about to what extent we believe her.

Reading back through past statements by her, it's pretty clear she is anti-Zionist to the extent that she confuses anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, but then again, so do the Israeli right and their supporters.


Well she is clearly going to deny she is an anti semite! :smile:

The video posted on this thread was utterly devastating to her reputation vis a vis any decent, right thinking person. Have you watched it??

If you have you will know that In it she denounces "peace talks" (she even says the phrase with a palpable sneer) and advocates terrorism to topple the "colonialist" Zionist State. She calls it "armed resistance" not terrorism.

She is clearly going to deny she supports terrorism.

What does that "armed resistance" mean in practice?

Crazed hate filled Palestinians knifing random Israeli citizens. What else can it mean?

Support for the terrorist organisations, Hamas and Hizbollah who murder Israeli citizens just because they are Jews. . What else can it mean?

That video, her own words, demonstrate that she is utterly unsuitable to have the position she does and brings it, and all the UK students (it purports to represent) into serious disrepute.

The only way forward is for individual SU's to disaffiliate. It is already happening, as others have said on this thread. I encourage all civilised, decent people, who abhor terrorism, to follow this lead and support disaffiliation also.
Original post by DiddyDec
She is not just some random supporter now. She is the head of the NUS. Does that not concern you. Further more she was voted in at a conference where they were cheering about not supporting the Holocaust Memorial Day because it wasn't "inclusive".

Posted from TSR Mobile


The NUS delegate conference is a few hundred people. It's never been remotely representative of students as a whole, or even student unions as a whole.

To get real change in the NUS is very difficult, as it would requite lots of committed effort by local union branches for a sustained period of time and this is always unlikely because of the turnover of student officers and their short lifespan at colleges. So the result is that the NUS lumbers on with bizarre interludes of random extremism of all kinds because it simply isn't very democratic.
Original post by JezWeCan!
She calls it "armed resistance" not terrorism.


Because there's a difference. Terrorism is deliberate attacks on civilians with the intent of causing terror among the civilian population. Armed resistance is any form of resistance involving weapons.
The NUS needs to lose its formal association with universities. If it were an "opt-in" organisation that had to raise funds directly from member subscriptions, practically no one would join.

Quick Reply