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The real reason Tory and Labour politicians want us to remain in the EU watch

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    (Original post by banterboy)
    i mean, that would have happened regardless of us being in the eu or not.
    Yes you are absolutely right. The motivation of the government re EU immigration is EXACTLY the same though, cheap labour for their multinational paymasters.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    Yes you are absolutely right. The motivation of the government re EU immigration is EXACTLY the same though, cheap labour for their multinational paymasters.
    nut wages are the same for low skill workers who come here?
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    if you resist wage deflation you'll get more off shoring not less
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    It really isnt a conspiracy theory. I have been directly affected by this. The whole development team i worked in were laid off and the work moved to India for the companies financial gain in lower wages.
    This is just globalisation in action. There's effectively no way to stop it other than be better than the competition.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    This is just globalisation in action. There's effectively no way to stop it other than be better than the competition.
    You cant be cheaper than the opposition if you have committed to a mortgage at uk house prices at uk rates years ago only to find that the wage for your job is now being undercut by someone who comes in overnight without your existing commitments and costs. The reality isnt so simple as you suggest with wage compression.
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    There's no way in hell I'm going to allow outlanders who know nothing about what it means to be an indigenous Briton, an Englishman, to govern this country. The in camp wants to hand over our country to greedy outlanders on a silver platter. My ancestors fought and died for this country. They sacrificed themselves to give us the rights and freedoms that we take for granted today. Yet the in camp has the audacity to spit on their legacy and their dream! It's a disgrace and those who would do so are traitors in my eyes.

    If you're a true Briton you'd vote to leave!
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    You cant be cheaper than the opposition if you have committed to a mortgage at uk house prices at uk rates years ago only to find that the wage for your job is now being undercut by someone who comes in overnight without your existing commitments and costs. The reality isnt so simple as you suggest with wage compression.
    Well, first of all I didn't write "cheaper", I wrote "better". You have to be better than the competition.

    Secondly, if people come here and can undercut you then I suggest that they can only do that on a short-term basis, if they aspire to the same standard or living that you want. I think you have to also accept that there is a certain commodity value to a lot of software development (I take it that's what you mean by development). Consequently, while this may have been a lucrative area of employment a few year ago, due to the relative scarcity of the necessary skills, the same it probably not true today.

    But again, these are issues you need to deal with due to globalisation. Your projects ending up in India has nothing to do with the EU, and it seems to me that many of those campaigning for LEAVE are going on about how we can forge greater connections with developing economies. Those links encourage commodity labour to move to low-wage economies.

    At least the EU is trying to create a level playing field in that respect with common standards and equivalent rights for workers (ie working conditions, holiday pay, paternity/maternity rights, etc) across the trade block.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    There's no way in hell I'm going to allow outlanders who know nothing about what it means to be an indigenous Briton, an Englishman, to govern this country. The in camp wants to hand over our country to greedy outlanders on a silver platter. My ancestors fought and died for this country. They sacrificed themselves to give us the rights and freedoms that we take for granted today. Yet the in camp has the audacity to spit on their legacy and their dream! It's a disgrace and those who would do so are traitors in my eyes.

    If you're a true Briton you'd vote to leave!
    This is about as brain-dead a comment as you are likely to see on TSR. Anyone with an ounce of intellect would be able to discern that, if you claim English ancestry, all of your actual ancestors came from Europe, via various waves of immigration: Celts, Saxons, Angles, Vikings, Normans…
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    This is about as brain-dead a comment as you are likely to see on TSR. Anyone with an ounce of intellect would be able to discern that, if you claim English ancestry, all of your actual ancestors came from Europe, via various waves of immigration: Celts, Saxons, Angles, Vikings, Normans…
    Yes, but who do you think it was who first populated this rock? Besides, the important thing is that those people built this country and it's culture, whereas mass uncontrolled immigration nowadays is destroying it. My people have lived here for thousands of years. We are the natives, simple as. Plus, going by your logic the aborigines aren't the indigenous people of Australia and the native Americans aren't the indigenous people of America, which is clearly false.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Well, first of all I didn't write "cheaper", I wrote "better". You have to be better than the competition.

    Secondly, if people come here and can undercut you then I suggest that they can only do that on a short-term basis, if they aspire to the same standard or living that you want. I think you have to also accept that there is a certain commodity value to a lot of software development (I take it that's what you mean by development). Consequently, while this may have been a lucrative area of employment a few year ago, due to the relative scarcity of the necessary skills, the same it probably not true today.

    But again, these are issues you need to deal with due to globalisation. Your projects ending up in India has nothing to do with the EU, and it seems to me that many of those campaigning for LEAVE are going on about how we can forge greater connections with developing economies. Those links encourage commodity labour to move to low-wage economies.

    At least the EU is trying to create a level playing field in that respect with common standards and equivalent rights for workers (ie working conditions, holiday pay, paternity/maternity rights, etc) across the trade block.
    Your argument is obviously flawed.

    The whole idea of wage compression is not through people being better than you it is through people of the same skill level as you being cheaper to employ than you.

    I have personally in the past handed over my job to offshore workers who were less skilled than me and were trying to upskill on the job. You seem to have little idea of what is going on in the real world. Multinationals will replace you with someone less skilled in the majority of cases to achieve wage profits. I know it and have been part of it.

    The EU is bad for the working person as they, like the uk parties, will be controlled by the interests of the multinational companies. It is happening in front of you with excessive immigration now causing wage compression surely it is obvious. This will cause workers rights to be eroded further as capitalism is based on supply and demand. The more supply the less rights you can negotiate. Especially when your democracy is being eroded by the EU also.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    There's no way in hell I'm going to allow outlanders who know nothing about what it means to be an indigenous Briton, an Englishman, to govern this country. The in camp wants to hand over our country to greedy outlanders on a silver platter. My ancestors fought and died for this country. They sacrificed themselves to give us the rights and freedoms that we take for granted today. Yet the in camp has the audacity to spit on their legacy and their dream! It's a disgrace and those who would do so are traitors in my eyes.

    If you're a true Briton you'd vote to leave!
    One would assume your ancestors died for a UNITED Europe, no?
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    The EU is bad for the working person as they, like the uk parties, will be controlled by the interests of the multinational companies. It is happening in front of you with excessive immigration now causing wage compression surely it is obvious. This will cause workers rights to be eroded further as capitalism is based on supply and demand. The more supply the less rights you can negotiate. Especially when your democracy is being eroded by the EU also.
    Easy to look at the bottom of the labour market. Since most unskilled labour disappeared to the far East and the UK became a skills based economy, what about the top end of the recruitment scale? It is currently difficult / impossible to recruit in many areas such as IT and engineering, not to mention health and other skilled professions. How do you reconcile the bottom with the top of the labour market?
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Yes, but who do you think it was who first populated this rock? Besides, the important thing is that those people built this country and it's culture, whereas mass uncontrolled immigration nowadays is destroying it. My people have lived here for thousands of years. We are the natives, simple as. Plus, going by your logic the aborigines aren't the indigenous people of Australia and the native Americans aren't the indigenous people of America, which is clearly false.
    No, that's not my logic. My logic is that at the end of the last Ice Age there were approximately 5,000 people in the entire British Isles - my bet would be that everyone who claims they are true Brits would not have descended solely from those people. The culture that we have is European in nature - EU citizens are not destroying our culture, they are helping to reinforce it.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    Your argument is obviously flawed.

    The whole idea of wage compression is not through people being better than you it is through people of the same skill level as you being cheaper to employ than you.
    That's why I say you have to be better than them.

    I have personally in the past handed over my job to offshore workers who were less skilled than me and were trying to upskill on the job. You seem to have little idea of what is going on in the real world. Multinationals will replace you with someone less skilled in the majority of cases to achieve wage profits. I know it and have been part of it.
    I probably have a much better idea than you about what is going on. I know exactly what the problem is and I accept that point that you make that often these cheaper solutions are with less skilled people. That's what you need to show your potential employers, and that is the lesson they need to learn.

    The EU is bad for the working person as they, like the uk parties, will be controlled by the interests of the multinational companies. It is happening in front of you with excessive immigration now causing wage compression surely it is obvious. This will cause workers rights to be eroded further as capitalism is based on supply and demand. The more supply the less rights you can negotiate. Especially when your democracy is being eroded by the EU also.
    I disagree that this is an EU problem, because you have already pointed out that it is a problem from outside the EU. I also say that it is not an EU problem because the EU has created a framework for workers rights that encompasses the entire economic block - if you want me to make a list I can do that for you.

    This is a problem of globalisation and quick/powerful communications. Get used to it. No one on the LEAVE side of the argument is seriously discussing imposing trade restrictions with the EU or the rest of the world, in fact they are saying to opposite - we will have free trade deals with everyone.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    That's why I say you have to be better than them.



    I probably have a much better idea than you about what is going on. I know exactly what the problem is and I accept that point that you make that often these cheaper solutions are with less skilled people. That's what you need to show your potential employers, and that is the lesson they need to learn.



    I disagree that this is an EU problem, because you have already pointed out that it is a problem from outside the EU. I also say that it is not an EU problem because the EU has created a framework for workers rights that encompasses the entire economic block - if you want me to make a list I can do that for you.

    This is a problem of globalisation and quick/powerful communications. Get used to it. No one on the LEAVE side of the argument is seriously discussing imposing trade restrictions with the EU or the rest of the world, in fact they are saying to opposite - we will have free trade deals with everyone.
    It really isnt about being better than them it is about companies cutting wage bills even if the skill of their workforce deteriorates as a result. Ideally for them it will be the same skill level but often not and the driving motivation is wage profit nothing else. It isnt a question of being better than them as that doesnt make you cheaper which is the reason for companies taking offshore labour simple as. It is as false an argument as the skills shortage lie that has been peddled by those with ulterior motives for wanting offshore labour. All the same reason cheap labour and yes companies will reduce the quality of their output if necessary to achieve it.

    It is an EU problem as the scale of cheap labour has been multiplied with the amount of immigration now allowed. It isnt by accident and it isnt for humanitarian reasons the Tory's are in bed with the EU simply to provide cheap labour to their party paymasters.

    Computer Science graduates have the highest unemployment rate of all graduates there is no intention of training them when a cheap trained person can be imported.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    It really isnt about being better than them it is about companies cutting wage bills even if the skill of their workforce deteriorates as a result. Ideally for them it will be the same skill level but often not and the driving motivation is wage profit nothing else.
    Either you have to be better than them, or you have to accept that you are not going to be able to work in that field. I understand the point you are making, and I accept, to a certain extent, that employers make decisions quite often on the basis of headline cost alone. This can be a false economy, because they also have to deal with the problems of a less skilled workforce. This is more true in larger companies, because they can take the various hits that occur.

    So, you are probably bettor off working in a small company, or generating your own work. You either have to go out and find the work yourself, or, as above, you get into a different field. There is no point in complaining that the work has moved overseas, or that people will do it cheaper than you - it's like complaining that all the coalmines in the UK are closed.

    It is an EU problem as the scale of cheap labour has been multiplied with the amount of immigration now allowed. It isnt by accident and it isnt for humanitarian reasons the Tory's are in bed with the EU simply to provide cheap labour to their party paymasters.
    I don't accept that this is a migration problem. People who come to the UK have the same aspirations as you, they want the same standard of living as you, and they will have the same costs as you. Many business take the attitude that they can employ recent graduates for much lower wages than experienced programmers - they therefore get rid of their more experienced people and employ graduates. This happens in many different industries.

    If the EU labour supply were not there the work would just move abroad.

    Computer Science graduates have the highest unemployment rate of all graduates there is no intention of training them when a cheap trained person can be imported.
    This is more-or-less the crux of the problem - we educate far too many people to degree level where there are not enough employment prospects for those people. We have been doing this for decades, so that we now have grade inflation to such an extent that you need a degree to get a semi-decent management role in a supermarket. For around 20 years, at least since 2000, waves of boys have been indoctrinated into the idea that they can make a good living as programmers or IT specialists. Unfortunately for them what was once a cutting edge business, developing rapidly, is now commodified, and there is an oversupply of labour.

    Certainly there are people doing cutting-edge work in this field, but they represent a very small fraction of the total employed. The people making the money and the careers are the ones who started 20 years ago, or who have exceptional skills. For everyone else you are just at the level of the domestic appliance repair man.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    DEMOCRACY

    don't lose it!
    We've been in the EU for 40 years and I'm pretty sure we're still a democracy.
 
 
 
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