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The EU protects our interests more than our own government Watch

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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    You cannot compare the research environment of the early 20th Century to research today. It makes absolutely no sense. EU membership is undeniably positive for UK science, do you seriously think there's unanimous support for EU membership amongst UK universities just for a joke?
    You'd be surprised at just how much damage the EU is doing to research nowadays. Universities support whatever the government in power supports because that's one of their funding sources. The universities don't speak for the researchers though, most of whom are livid over the EU's cuts to funding and it's attitude to researchers of more disadvantaged backgrounds.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    UK universities are full of ****. Just like Obama, and LSE, and the IMF, and Richard Branson are all full of ****. Nigel Farage said so!
    Yea, their pseudo-science departments are, but I challenge you to say that when the economy plummets due to a lack of new technologies (due to a lack of research) when the research funding gets cut too far.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Chemical physicist, right here! Reporting for debunking duty.



    Okay first I'm going to need you to provide a credible source. At present you're only making biased (and rather ignorant) assertions which hold no academic value whatsoever without evidence.

    Next, I should point out that the majority of funding for research doesn't come from any government institutions, it comes from private companies. I should also point out that the EU is actually crippling the ability of researchers to do their research by cutting funding by ridiculous amounts each year. The whole scientific community is in uproar over it. Without research the number of deaths each year due to superbugs and other medication resistant pathogens soars (as well as those from ordinary pathogens), the economy plummets as new technologies aren't being produced to support the consumer market, the quality of life plummets too, as well as so much more. If we remain in the EU, the severity of the damage done to our research institutions could drag us back into the great depression in a decade or less.
    http://www.nature.com/news/a-call-to...cience-1.16086
    http://www.nature.com/news/scientist...e-poll-1.19636

    "Should the UK exit the EU or remain?"

    83% of polled researchers answered remain.

    "What impact would a UK exit from the EU have on UK science?"

    78% said it would be harmful. Over 50% said it would be very harmful.

    I'll take the consensus among a sample of 2000+ researchers over your view.


    As I pointed out above, the EU is killing research not funding it. And stop spouting out that armageddon fearmongery. Global climate fluctuations are natural and not yet well understood by scientists. Governments have used inconclusive evidence (with lots of contradicting evidence which they've ignored) as a fear technique. It's ridiculous.
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...00/ast20oct_1/
    Are you really going to start debating man-made climate change? With an article from the year 2000 as your source, no less? Come on, for **** sake.


    In fact everyone benefits from a growing economy - which is exactly what the Tories have created. They took the country from near bankruptcy (caused by idiot leftists, aka Labor) and turned the whole economic situation around. As a result everyone in Britain is better off than they were under Labor. The Tories have actually made everyone richer.
    This simply isn't true. Despite economic growth, spending on education and healthcare is going down every year. My school is dilapidated, it's falling to ****ing bits, we're using decade-old computers while there are schools in the South buying an iPad for each student.


    Like I said, enough of the fearmongery! You clearly know absolutely nothing of what goes on in politics or in the Earth's atmosphere. It'd be best if you just left this to people who know what they're talking about, because everything you've said so far is utter tripe.
    Yep. Man-made climate change isn't real. Vaccines cause autism. The Earth is flat. I'll leave it to the people who know what they're talking about.

    I should point out to everyone that because the EU is decreasing our ability to do research, remaining in the EU will not only be catastrophic for political and economic reasons, but will also severely damage our future economy and living standards. If you care about the future of humanity as a whole (a future which depends entirely on science and research), you should vote to leave. Research that is done in the UK helps millions worldwide to overcome diseases and poverty, yet the EU is tightening the noose on our ability to do this research. In effect, the EU is paving the way for future generations to suffer.
    And I should point out to everyone that you're talking absolute *******s.
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    We don't have to be in the EU to be signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights. Just look at Russia, for example.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Leave voters are constantly whining about the EU being "undemocratic" and how we "shouldn't be ruled by people that don't represent our interests".

    The EU gives us most of our consumer rights, workers' rights and human rights. Is anyone naive enough to believe that a Tory government would uphold those rights if they had the choice not to? They're already trying to repeal our Human Rights Act, and they'd jump at the chance to strip away more of our rights, so we'd work harder and bring them more money. The EU is the only thing stopping this, and most of the Leave voters would be the first to start crying if they lost their rights.

    The EU funds regions of the UK that the government refuses to. The European Regional Development Fund invests in projects across the country, aiming to balance regional inequality. The government is leaving half of this country to rot, while the EU is investing in business, science, environment and culture projects in the areas that need it most.

    The EU funds climate change research, protection and prevention, and introduces legislation aiming to prevent a potentially catastrophic environmental disaster (even though we're probably past the point where it can be prevented), while our own government is cutting spending on renewables and investing in new, more dangerous ways of extracting fossil fuels.

    The Leave voters don't realize that they're living in poverty because of their own government and that the EU red tape they keep *****ing about is the red tape protecting their rights as workers, because most of these people know *******s all about the EU, they just read in The Sun that it's the cause of literally every problem in their lives.

    I'd feel much safer in the hands of the EU than the government that the idiots of the British electorate vote into power.
    Why don't you lefties vote out and then vote in a left wing government and have democratic governence? Does not take Einstein to come up with that
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Why don't you lefties vote out and then vote in a left wing government and have democratic governence? Does not take Einstein to come up with that
    Because there are far more benefits from EU membership than just the legislative ones.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Because there are far more benefits from EU membership than just the legislative ones.
    So your whole argument has no traction. You've come on here acting like a petty child moaning about EU vs UK rights when you basically admitted you could vote in a left wing government to get all the rights you want. Idiot.
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    So your whole argument has no traction. You've come on here acting like a petty child moaning about EU vs UK rights when you basically admitted you could vote in a left wing government to get all the rights you want. Idiot.
    Eh, no.

    I made an argument to counter the point that the leave campaign keeps spouting - that EU legislation is bad for us. I've argued that it's not. Not really complicated, is it?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    http://www.nature.com/news/scientist...e-poll-1.19636

    "Should the UK exit the EU or remain?"

    83% of polled researchers answered remain.
    "What impact would a UK exit from the EU have on UK science?"

    78% said it would be harmful. Over 50% said it would be very harmful.[/QUOTE]

    Did you know that of all the EU member states that could get the funding, 2/3 of it goes to Britain? How is that fair on other researchers? Yes, 78% of British researchers said they think leaving would be bad. But science is an international thing, we're always working in conjunction with scientists from other countries. The biased opinions of the few who actually receive funding from the EU are not a good indication, as that funding would help our fellow scientists in other countries. With that funding our overseas colleagues could do so much more, which in turn helps us as well.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    I'll take the consensus among a sample of 2000+ researchers over your view.
    Well that's your choice. I would argue that the sample is biased due to all the reasons I've explained above, but you would just ignore that so I won't bother.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Are you really going to start debating man-made climate change? With an article from the year 2000 as your source, no less? Come on, for **** sake.
    Yes, I am. Because there are many like myself in the scientific community who have serious doubts about the whole thing. I don't disagree that human activity has increased atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, but carbon dioxide has a very limited set of IR absorption values. There's also a plethora of natural causes which have been going on for the earth's entire history. We know far too little to say to what extent this is affected by humans.

    Did you know that we're currently in the warming stage of the fourth ice age? You know, the Earth has actually been repeatedly heating and cooling throughout its entire existence. Climate change is normal. Oh and by the way, humans have been using fossil fuels for centuries, during which time you'd expect an increase in atmospheric temperatures, so even research done in 2000 is relevant. Want me to get some more updated sources?

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7GL029431/full
    http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.o...810/1885.short
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/289/5477/270
    http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v.../ngeo2580.html

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    This simply isn't true. Despite economic growth, spending on education and healthcare is going down every year. My school is dilapidated, it's falling to ****ing bits, we're using decade-old computers while there are schools in the South buying an iPad for each student.
    That's not the central government though. That's your local council not dishing out the funds appropriately.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Yep. Man-made climate change isn't real. Vaccines cause autism. The Earth is flat. I'll leave it to the people who know what they're talking about.
    I never said it wasn't real. I said the extent to which humans are affecting it is unknown and based on what's been going on for the entire history of the Earth I don't think it's anywhere near the threat level you seem to think it's at.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    And I should point out to everyone that you're talking absolute *******s.
    And I should point out to everyone that you still haven't provided any sources for your previous "Tories are destroying the country" ramblings. I should also point out the dangerously high levels of butthurt in your post. Are the informed refutations of everything you're saying by people in the leave camp getting to you?

    I can't be bothered to continue debating with an idiot who can't accept it when they're wrong. Good day to you.
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Why don't you lefties vote out and then vote in a left wing government and have democratic governence? Does not take Einstein to come up with that
    They're not confident they can win elections so they try to go over everyone's head via the EU. They know that any British government present and future will by bound by EU law. A lot of leftists are terrified by the prospect of Brexit because they imagine that Britain will have some kind of permanent right-wing Tory government that will tear up every progressive policy they have ever supported. Deep down many leftists find it difficult to accept that England is a lot more right-wing than they want it to be.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It's 20 days statutory plus 8 bank holidays, there'd likely be riots in the street if they tried to abolish the latter.
    That's because those 8 bank holidays are British holidays and the British government has decided that those should be additional to the 20 statutory days. The EU Working Time Directive doesn't say you get anything for bank holidays so employers could make you take them out of your statutory 20.

    And surely if fear of "riots in the street" will stop politicians from abolishing working rights then it's scaremongering that without the EU they would be abolished...
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    I never said it wasn't real. I said the extent to which humans are affecting it is unknown and based on what's been going on for the entire history of the Earth I don't think it's anywhere near the threat level you seem to think it's at.
    I don't agree with your arguments against the EU's importance for UK science but can you at least stop the climate change denial? The arguments you've written above either make no sense or are irrelevant. As a scientist, you should know better.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    You cannot compare the research environment of the early 20th Century to research today. It makes absolutely no sense. EU membership is undeniably positive for UK science, do you seriously think there's unanimous support for EU membership amongst UK universities just for a joke?
    My point is Einstein didn't need the EU did he? There was no European union at the time and he did just fine.

    So honestly, I don't get the scaremongerers who say science is doomed without the EU. We had progression in science before the EU even existed and we'll still have it if we leave.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    My point is Einstein didn't need the EU did he? There was no European union at the time and he did just fine.

    So honestly, I don't get the scaremongerers who say science is doomed without the EU. We had progression in science before the EU even existed and we'll still have it if we leave.
    That's a poor argument is so many ways. For starters, nobody is saying "science is doomed without the EU", they're saying that leaving the EU will damage UK science. Just because UK science won't be destroyed by the EU doesn't mean that it won't have a negative impact. Secondly, as I've already explained, the way science works now is very different to the way it worked in Einstein's day. It used to be driven by individual geniuses working in (comparative) isolation whereas today, science is a hugely international, collaborative, group-based endeavor that relies very heavily on international cooperation (much more so than in Einstein's day). It's straight denial to act as if leaving a collaborative institution like the EU won't harm science in this country, unless there's a reason why you think you know better than the UK's scientific community. If not, it's just arrogance.
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    [QUOTE=Plagioclase;64359127]I don't agree with your arguments against the EU's importance for UK science but can you at least stop the climate change denial? The arguments you've written above either make no sense or are irrelevant. As a scientist, you should know better.[/QUOTE

    Take a closer look at what I said. I didn't say climate change wasn't happening or that humans weren't having an accelerating effect on it.

    I just pointed out that this is in fact a natural phenomenon which has been going on throughout the Earth's entire history. At present we don’t know enough about the mechanisms behind it to say to what extent humans have affected it, so jumping to conclusions as the OP has done is just plain stupid.

    I should also point out to you that since Britain receives 2/3 of EU funding, British scientists are likely to say that leaving is detrimental. However, since science involves international cooperation, the lack of funds for our overseas colleagues is very detrimental to us. We're left twiddling our thumbs and waiting for them to get the funding and catch up.

    The EU provides only a minor fraction of British research funds so we can easily go without it. Our overseas colleagues need it much more but at present they don't get it. This is detrimental to us all.
 
 
 
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