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Is denying Israels's right to exist anti-semitism? Watch

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    (Original post by Metalfros)
    No. If it is, then denying the Palestinian state, which has been there hundreds of years before Israel was founded, is anti-islamic. If people can please stop bashing at each other and work towards a two state solution, which is the only solution in my opinion. Both the terrorists of Israel have to stop and the terrorists of Hamas.
    :rolleyes:

    Before Israel was founded, Palestine was administered by the UK, and before that it belonged to the Ottoman Empire, the Mamluk Sultanate, the Crusader states, the Fatimids, the Abbasids, the Umayyads, the Byzantines, the Romans. Before the Romans, there was a Jewish state named the Hasmonean kingdom.

    The last time Palestine was a state, it was a Jewish one.
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    Jews place a lot of stock in their bloodlines. Ethnically, you can be considered Jewish if your mother is jewish. They are also very tightly knit as a people, with even the diaspora forming communities that to some extent were still very different from the surrounding communities. Conversions to Judaism are long, rare and difficult.

    Genetically, Jews across the diaspora have kept to themselves. Not really inbreeding, the jewish community is too large for that, but still, Jews usually only marry jews.

    Genetically, they almost are a different race and it does show
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    even if such a race did exist why is it entitled to a state anymore than any other ethnic group? Do the hundreds of ethnic groups in Russia reserve the right to form their own states? While they're there perhaps they could also displace the native Russians?
    "Anymore than any other ethnic group."

    There are plenty of nations founded over the last 100 years based purely on national self determination around a particular ethnic group or language. Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, (hey alphabetically) Croatia, Serbia. Plenty of countries exist that were created by a particular groups desire for a homeland. We're seeing that now with Kurdistan.

    "Do the hundreds of ethnic groups in Russia reserve the right to form their own states" and etc.

    Well, a lot of ex soviet republics did. And even ethnic russians living in those ex soviet republics want to return to their own homeland, hence, the Crimea situation.

    Its up to those people and groups to decide if they want their own state
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    Not in my books.

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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    There is agreeably complexity over the issue of Zionism and the British colonial governments authority over territory, and I would not like it to be a set precedent that former groups should claim land which was lost centuries ago (such a precedent would be of absurd proportions) but using the Balfour Declaration:
    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country"

    I am of the opinion the conditions of the settlements on the West Bank violate this agreement.

    There is also the correspondence between the British and Arab nationalists, the poorly defined border arrangements after the damage to the Ottoman empire and general colonial resentment because of this. Looking here I seem to be one of the only proponents of a one state solution which recognises the importance of both Zionism and Arab nationalism.
    I do not deny your claim of the West Bank expansion being a violation of the agreement. I also support the idea of a one-state solution, as I don't feel a two-state solution is conceivable with the recent history. The election in April 2015 of Palestinian-dominated parties to the Knesset seems promising towards this resolution.

    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    From the wikipedia article on the Balfour Declaration
    British public and government opinion became increasingly less favourable to the commitment that had been made to Zionist policy. In February 1922, Winston Churchill telegraphed Herbert Samuel asking for cuts in expenditure and noting:In both Houses of Parliament there is growing movement of hostility, against Zionist policy in Palestine, which will be stimulated by recent Northcliffe articles.[80] I do not attach undue importance to this movement, but it is increasingly difficult to meet the argument that it is unfair to ask the British taxpayer, already overwhelmed with taxation, to bear the cost of imposing on Palestine an unpopular policy
    It is clear to me and many others based on evidence from British officials themselves that Zionism originally was forced on the natives and was a deeply unpopular (both in Britain and in the Arab world), religiously and nationalistic based on policy, which should never have been recognised in the first place, if not likely for the money and power of those behind the proposal.
    Your assessment is correct but in my opinion, incomplete. The hope of many supporters of the 'Zionist vision' was indeed an exaggerated view of the global Jewish wealth but in addition there was a hope by many for a biblical appeal of the return of the Jews to their 'homeland'. Additionally, Balfour was also interested in keeping Russia in the war and drumming up U.S. support to join it (which they did in April 1917). I would also argue that a pro-British ally in the region would counterweight Ottoman holdings and help secure a passage to India.
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    (Original post by KaminiZindagi)
    Not in my books.

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    Lets take a look at KaminiZindagi's expansive set of literature
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Lets take a look at KaminiZindagi's expansive set of literature
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    Ex Muslim here...Religion is ********

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    (Original post by KaminiZindagi)
    Ex Muslim here...Religion is ********

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    I was just jesting mate
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    No it isn't anti Semitic. However as someone who is Jewish it feels anti Semitic the way many people criticise Israel and don't criticise non Jewish countries.
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    (Original post by jelly1000)
    No it isn't anti Semitic. However as someone who is Jewish it feels anti Semitic the way many people criticise Israel and don't criticise non Jewish countries.
    Non-criticism of another country, vis-a-vis policies does not excuse, justify or form a defence of Israeli actions.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Non-criticism of another country, vis-a-vis policies does not excuse, justify or form a defence of Israeli actions.
    I never said that, I was questioning peoples attitudes, not the state
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    (Original post by jelly1000)
    I never said that, I was questioning peoples attitudes, not the state
    By claiming, or floating the idea that Israel receives a disproportionate amount of coverage and criticism, you seek to minimise their actions as routine or similar to any other nation.

    It is called whataboutery, and it is a fallacy.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    I am of the opinion the conditions of the settlements on the West Bank violate this agreement.
    Balfour Declaration is a statement about intentions of British Government. It's not an agreement and therefore cannot be violated. :cool:
    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    I don't even agree with the proposition that the 'Jews deserve a homeland' which Jews are these? Such an admission seems to suggest the existence of a Jewish race,
    Oh, it's a very hard blow for "these Jews" to bear. :cool:
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    Denying Israel's right to exist is not anti-Semitism in and of itself. There's only one country that people want to deny the right to exist, and that's Israel (the only Jewish country in the world). The whole movement stems from anti-Semitism, but that doesn't mean that the people who believe it today, when the movement has been established for such a long time, are anti-Semitic. They perhaps don't see the origins of what they believe, but no, being anti-Israel is not the same as being anti-Semitic.

    That being said, a lot of people are both, and it's not hard to see. Calling Jews "dirty Zionists" or something of the sort is a pretty clear indicator. Assuming all Jews are Zionists and blaming us for the actions of the Israeli government is something that you wouldn't do anywhere else. I don't blame all British people for Cameron or all Americans for Bush. So why, when the Jewish population around the world is so liberal, do you blame us for the conservative Israeli government's actions? I'm American. I support Israel's right to exist. I condemn many actions that Bibi especially has taken. I condemn just about everything Hamas has ever done. It's a balanced view that comes along with the so-called crazy notion that a country that's been under attack since day one shouldn't have its legal existence stripped from it.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    :rolleyes:

    Before Israel was founded, Palestine was administered by the UK, and before that it belonged to the Ottoman Empire, the Mamluk Sultanate, the Crusader states, the Fatimids, the Abbasids, the Umayyads, the Byzantines, the Romans. Before the Romans, there was a Jewish state named the Hasmonean kingdom.

    The last time Palestine was a state, it was a Jewish one.
    Past doesn't even matter now. You can't just place millions of people (in this case jews) on a pile of land already inhabited by other people (Palestinian people) and call if yours. By UN laws, both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist.

    Israel stops the occupation and stops murdering thousands of children and women. And in return, Palestine denounces and stops Hamas. Give Jerusalem to the rightful owners, Palestine and we have peace.
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    (Original post by sjohnson98)
    Denying Israel's right to exist is not anti-Semitism in and of itself. There's only one country that people want to deny the right to exist, and that's Israel (the only Jewish country in the world).
    I deny the "right to exist" of all and any states, as an anarchist. Nor does such a right exist in international law.

    In plenty of other conflicts and disputes, the "right to exist" of certain states is implicitly denied. To give just one example, Irish nationalists most certainly do not accept the idea that the UK has a "right to exist". Nor do Flemish and Waloon nationalists accept it of Belgium, and so on.

    The term is virtually unique to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Occasionally Kurdish, Chechen and Basque separatists have used the term, but there it just seems to be a clumsy wording (or even just bad translation) of a right of secession - at any rate, the world certainly doesn't recognise any inherent legal right to an independent state to any of those groups.

    When Israel talks of a "right to exist", it's really more of an indirect way of denying the Palestinian right of return, of reserving a "right" to stop the population of Palestinian citizens of Israel getting too high, if that ever became a problem, and more symbolically, to get the Palestinians to legitimise their own dispossession.

    Imagine if we'd required Sinn Fein to recognise Northern Ireland's "right to remain British/Protestant" before we'd consider negotiations - do you think they'd accept that in a million years?
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    (Original post by Josb)
    :rolleyes:

    Before Israel was founded, Palestine was administered by the UK, and before that it belonged to the Ottoman Empire, the Mamluk Sultanate, the Crusader states, the Fatimids, the Abbasids, the Umayyads, the Byzantines, the Romans. Before the Romans, there was a Jewish state named the Hasmonean kingdom.

    The last time Palestine was a state, it was a Jewish one.
    If we span that far back in history, how about the whites leave America after they slaughtered the natives like pigs? Theres sooo many examples too so dont give this ******** to justify what the Jews have done.

    We look at the last official administration AND israel is violating international law with illegal settlements etc etc
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    (Original post by Metalfros)
    Israel stops the occupation and stops murdering thousands of children and women. And in return, Palestine denounces and stops Hamas. Give Jerusalem to the rightful owners, Palestine and we have peace.
    You really think the Jews would do that? They've been using the positive discrimination they receive as leverage to take advantage and continue to oppress the Palestinians. The israelis are untouchable and dont respect law at all.
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    (Original post by Youngmetro)
    If we span that far back in history, how about the whites leave America after they slaughtered the natives like pigs? Theres sooo many examples too so dont give this ******** to justify what the Jews have done.

    We look at the last official administration AND israel is violating international law with illegal settlements etc etc
    I was answering someone who said that "the Palestinian state [...] ha[d] been there hundreds of years before Israel was founded", which is completely wrong.
    I did not use the history of Palestine to justify what Israel have done in the conflict with Arabs. I just gave a historical fact.

    It is another very poor post from you; you have jumped at my throat without even having read my post properly. Perhaps you should only post in this section of the website once you are able to read.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    It is another very poor post from you; you have jumped at my throat without even having read my post properly. Perhaps you should only post in this section of the website once you are able to read.
    My bad. And dont talk about 'poor posts'. the reason you got violated in the other thread was for doing exactly that. Dont bother holding a grudge, and you're really not in a position to question my intelligence. And before you give me **** about your 2 masters, have a look at your payslip.
 
 
 
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