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Westerners and the inability to differentiate between ISIS and Muslims Watch

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    People are stupid. I'm pretty sure every Sun reader thinks they are the same thing, because they're pretty much told they are and certainly aren't encouraged to make the distinction.
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    (Original post by Nathanielle)
    Hitler was not motivated by Christianity nor did he believed in it. Nationasozialismus is not a weired form of Christianity or Christians gone wrong. A hardcore Nationalsozialist would have been rather interested in reestablishing prechristian cults, than promoting Christianity. Please get your facts straight, if you want others not to generalize.

    2nd: Westerners vs Muslims is as ridiculous. There have allways been Muslims in Europe (especially in the Balkan, Austrian-Hungary, ...), not the Saudi-Arabian style, but a way more liberal form, yes, but this Westerner against Muslim is by itself a generalization actually not worth to be answered seriously.
    why not say Nazi

    (Original post by Clintbarton)
    I'm not generalising, I'm not innate to come unprepared and use statements without supporting evidence.

    Scholars argue that hitler was not a Christian, some argue against. After doing my research and reading the abominable Mein Kempf I was able to create my own opinion, thank you very much.

    He went to a catholic school and was bought up in a monestary school. He said his eradication of Jews was 'the lord's work'

    Even if you don't think he was a practicing Christian you yourself said that it was a form of Christianity. There are many forms with the same core beliefs. Read this evidenced article http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm and hit me up afterwards
    that's not what innate means
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    (Original post by Clintbarton)
    just as the radical views and actions of Hitler or Henry the Eighth, or all these "Christian historics" you learn about with more murders on their tableau than hot dinners do not equate all Christians with the actions of the minority, it is the same for Muslims.
    Yes, just as it it is wrong to equate all Christians with Radovan Karadžić (who I feel is a better example than Hitler, who wasn't particularly Christian, or Henry VIII, who wasn't particularly evil), it is wrong to equate all Muslims with ISIS. But it is still true that Karadžić is a Christian, likewise ISIS are Muslims.

    There is no such thing as a "true" Muslim (or a "true" Christian for that matter). You claim that ISIS aren't Muslims because they are too violent, they claim liberal Muslims aren't Muslims because they aren't violent enough. Neither claim is correct - a Muslim is anyone who is widely recognized as being so.
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    (Original post by sweeneyrod)
    What makes you think ISIS aren't Muslims? They believe in Allah, they take guidance from the Quran, they share many beliefs with people who I'm sure you would agree are Muslims. You might argue that a "true" Muslim would never commit some of the acts ISIS do, but equally ISIS could argue that a "true" Muslim cannot shy away from jihad when necessary. Although I think Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi probably knows a lot more about Islam than you, that doesn't mean he's right, in fact, you are both wrong. There is no "true" Muslim, merely different kinds of Muslims with different beliefs, some good (the majority of those in the UK), some bad (those in ISIS).
    ISIS don't believe in Allah, they don't take guidance from the quran and they certainly don't share beliefs with Muslims. Therefore they aren't Muslims. They are terrorists who refer to Islam all the time because they want to recruit Muslims and corrupt them into their terrorist lifestyle and make Islam look bad when it isn't, it's like any other religion but with different beliefs, values etc. ISIS members cannot be Muslims with what they are doing because Islam doesn't condone it. If they were Muslims they would know that terrorism is wrong and wouldn't have participated in such things in the first place.

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    (Original post by samzy21)
    ISIS don't believe in Allah, they don't take guidance from the quran and they certainly don't share beliefs with Muslims.

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    That is simply untrue. The leader of ISIS is thought to have PhD in Islamic Studies, I expect he probably knows a bit about Islam. Here is an issue of ISIS' English magazine.

    The first sentence: "All praise is due to Allah, Lordof the creation. May blessings andpeace be upon His Messenger, Muhammad,and upon all his familyand companions." Here is a quote from the Brussels Metro station bomber, describing a dream that made him join ISIS: "“It was a vision. Afterhearing the last verse of al-Fath recited in a loud voice, I sawthe Prophet (PBUH) on a horse in battle, a distance away. The visiontook me beyond the battlefield. I saw myself as an archershooting arrows at the enemy. I would shoot, take cover, thenshoot again." Note the reference to the Quran and the Prophet. Immediately after leaving prison, he gave "da’wah in his neighborhood". On page 8, below the title "KILL the Imans of Kufr in the West", the author justifies their definition of apostasy with direct quotes from the Quran. On page 27, after a description of ISIS' latest military successes is a page on Affliction and Faith, consisting almost entirely of quotes from the Prophet on affliction and faith. Turning to the penultimate page, we see a Buzzfeedesque "Ten videos selected from the wilayat of the Islamic State". Number one (must watch)? "To establish the religion".

    I could go on, but I think I've read enough ISIS propaganda for one day. The point is that ISIS clearly do believe in Allah, they do take guidance from the Quran, and they certainly do share beliefs with other Muslims. To say otherwise is ridiculous nonsense.
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    Please, there's no need for you to use words such as fool.

    Please read this.. It's from an article written in 2016.. Not in 2015.
    'Sarawak has done well to not let race and religion be divisive factors in its administration and society at large. Sarawakians are unlikely to take kindly to the stand declared by PAS as they have always pride themselves as being able to look beyond race and religion.PAS is in for a hiding at the Sarawak State Election and is unlikely to win a single despite contesting in 11 constituencies. A backlash awaits the Islamist party over Hadi’s declaration.'
    'The effectiveness or capability of a leader is not determined by his race or religion. The true measure of a real leader is not his religious conviction but his moral courage to do the right thing all the time.'


    http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/in...#axzz47y0pJSta

    (Original post by typonaut)
    Here's what the US State Department says about religion in Malaysia:



    http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2014/eap/238310.htm
    Yes because the US state is the most tolerant place in the world.
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    Yes because the US state is the most tolerant place in the world.
    The US is certainly more tolerant than a place that legally forbids Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men, and punishes trying to convert Christians to Islam with whipping.
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    (Original post by sweeneyrod)
    The US is certainly more tolerant than a place that legally forbids Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men, and punishes trying to convert Christians to Islam with whipping.
    That was not my point. You showed me an article about Malaysians from the US state stating 'death threats to religious converts, particularly those converting from Islam' etc. When in reality the US is not the best place to be in the world, espically for Muslims right now.
    https://theintercept.com/2016/05/05/...slim-rhetoric/

    Also I agree that some Muslims may 'punishes trying to convert Christians to Islam with whipping', but also Christians do the same thing to Muslims.
    'In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days'.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5fb_story.html
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    people are dumb
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    Please, there's no need for you to use words such as fool.
    it was a quote from billy madison

    no harm intended

    Please read this.. It's from an article written in 2016.. Not in 2015.
    'Sarawak has done well to not let race and religion be divisive factors in its administration and society at large. Sarawakians are unlikely to take kindly to the stand declared by PAS as they have always pride themselves as being able to look beyond race and religion.PAS is in for a hiding at the Sarawak State Election and is unlikely to win a single despite contesting in 11 constituencies. A backlash awaits the Islamist party over Hadi’s declaration.'
    'The effectiveness or capability of a leader is not determined by his race or religion. The true measure of a real leader is not his religious conviction but his moral courage to do the right thing all the time.'


    ...so, what's the relevance or argument to be made here?

    http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/in...#axzz47y0pJSta


    Yes because the US state is the most tolerant place in the world.
    ...but that was an article on the CAF? and christianity in central africa is terrible, I never claimed it wasn't. european christianity has gone through the hurdles of the enlightenment an has basically shed that religion of all its meaning. in africa, that never happened, just like islam never had that happen in the middle east, despite being relatively modern today in some parts
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    it was a quote from billy madison

    no harm intended

    [/b]

    ...so, what's the relevance or argument to be made here?



    ...but that was an article on the CAF? and christianity in central africa is terrible, I never claimed it wasn't. european christianity has gone through the hurdles of the enlightenment an has basically shed that religion of all its meaning. in africa, that never happened, just like islam never had that happen in the middle east, despite being relatively modern today in some parts
    Oh lol haha! No problem.

    I am just trying to tell you that yes even though the extremist do want to take over Malaysia, the government does't really want them and they are trying to do everything they can to prevent that.
    PAS are the extremist that are trying to take over - from the article you showed me.



    ...That one was not meant for you sorry. That was for the other person saying 'Muslims killing Christians' so I told him not only Muslims do that.
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    Oh lol haha! No problem.

    I am just trying to tell you that yes even though the extremist do want to take over Malaysia, the government does't really want them and they are trying to do everything they can to prevent that.
    PAS are the
    yeah but doesn't that still imply that malaysia isn't as ideal of a muslim country as you were making it seem? why not turkey or something? and even then, do you really consider turkey on a par with the other nations in the "west"?
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    yeah but doesn't that still imply that malaysia isn't as ideal of a muslim country as you were making it seem? why not turkey or something? and even then, do you really consider turkey on a par with the other nations in the "west"?
    Compared to the west, of course Muslim countries won't compare. Just like what you said before, Christian countries in Africa are not like the Christian countries in the west.
    Malaysia is an ideal Muslim country compared to Saudi Arabia, that was my point. I just gave Malaysia as an example, Turkey is also good.
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    That was not my point. You showed me an article about Malaysians from the US state stating 'death threats to religious converts, particularly those converting from Islam' etc. When in reality the US is not the best place to be in the world, espically for Muslims right now.
    https://theintercept.com/2016/05/05/...slim-rhetoric/

    Also I agree that some Muslims may 'punishes trying to convert Christians to Islam with whipping', but also Christians do the same thing to Muslims.
    'In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days'.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5fb_story.html
    But discrimination against Muslims in the US is completely and utterly irrelevant to whether Malaysia is an example of a good Muslim state! There is literally no connection between the two, and no reason to bring it up. Central African Christian militias are also completely irrelevant. I don't think anyone believes that all Muslims are evil and violent and all Christians are pleasant and peaceful. The point is that Malaysia is not an example of a nice Muslim state. It is certainly better than many others, but it is definitely not comparable with non-Muslim countries such as the USA. Not only are non-Muslims better off in the USA, Muslims are as well -- its GDP per capita is 5x that of Malaysia.
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    (Original post by Clintbarton)
    There are plenty of things to criticise about anything if you're fundametally looking for something to criticise.
    So it takes somebody purposely looking for things to criticise for them to find fault with Islam? Pure arrogance of the highest level. Incredibly obnoxious.
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    Why do you keep using Saudi Arabia as your reference. There are many Muslim countries that are not like that, for example, Malaysia.
    Homosexuality is illegal in Malaysia lol!. Your example of a tolerant Muslim country has this said about it by Human Rights Watch:

    ""Discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people is pervasive in Malaysia"

    It is literally against the law! How tolerant, progressive and open-minded lol.

    Here are some more facts about Malaysia's tolerance towards LGBT people:

    In 1994, the government banned anyone who is homosexual, bisexual or transsexual from appearing in the state-controlled media.

    In 1995, the state of Selangor Religious Affairs Minister praised the Islamic Badar vigilante groups who had organised in 1994 to assist in the arrest of 7,000 for engaging in "unIslamic" activities such as homosexuality.

    In 2001, the former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad stated that the country will deport any visiting foreign cabinet ministers or diplomats who are gay. Mohamad also warned gay ministers in foreign countries not to bring along their partners while visiting the nation.Mahathir's daughter, Marina Mahathir, however has called for an end to discrimination based on sexual orientation.

    In 2005, the Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) chief Mohd Anwar Mohd Nor stated that the Navy would never accept homosexuals.

    In 2010, the Film Censorship Board of Malaysia announced it would only allow depiction of homosexual characters as long as the characters "repent" or die.

    Regarding Trans people, Human Rights Watch states:

    "transgender people "face arbitrary arrest, physical and sexual assault, imprisonment, discriminatory denial of health care and employment, and other abuses."

    This is your example of a tolerant Muslim country. To be fair, the above counts as tolerant for Muslim countries.....many others treat homosexuals far worse even than that.

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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Homosexuality is illegal in Malaysia lol!.
    I never said that homosexuality in Malaysia was legal. My point was that other Muslim countries are much more tolerant than Saudi Arabia.
    But thank you for that piece of information.
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    But members of ISIS are Muslims though.

    You do realise what ISIS are doing now is what Muslims were doing with the prophet Muhummed during his war campaign?
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    > EDIT: I meant no disrespect or offence by using the term 'westerners'

    I don't think you need to apologise for that.

    You have two sides to this argument. ISIS is all about Islam, ISIS is nothing to do with Islam. Both are retarded.
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    (Original post by Clintbarton)
    EDIT: I meant no disrespect or offence by using the term 'westerners' - I just meant the English and the political stances on terrorism. I understand and apologise for using the term so flippantly and for generalising a belief that not everyone shares (but I really have no clue how to change the title of the thread)

    ~~~~

    I have a genuine question.

    What is with the general inability to differentiate between the bad guys and a religion who do not in any way condone the radical actions or share the same extremist views as this terrorist group that inspires hatred?

    I understand the media influence and the over exaggerated 'truth' that everyone so willingly accepts. But why is it so difficult to accept a person with a religion and not associate them with terrorism because of their belief in a God? (Or even the colour of their skin. A lot of Sikh, Hindus and middle eastern non-Muslims have been subject to this vile association with terrorism.)

    But what is it with the inability to differentiate between terrorism and the brown person who believes in God? Are people that plugged in and indoctrinated by the media that they have lost the ability to form their own opinions and think for themselves?
    I honestly refuse to believe that the majority of muslims lack the minimal level of empathy it would take to see this from the western point of view.
    It certainly seems to me that your asking quite a lot of westerners. You expect us to understand you, empathize with your plight, ignore what common sense tells us, and welcome you into our country.

    You are correct, there is an inability to differentiate between terrorism,(I assume you meant, "terrorist") and the brown person who believes in God. I would think this is an impossible task. Can you tell the difference without knowing the persons personally? If you can, please let me know.

    You ask if we've lost the ability to form our own opinions and think for ourselves as a result of media indoctrination. I think the election of Trump is a good indicator of the level of trust we put in the media. Likewise, the media supports immigration, portraying any who don't as racist, etc. and the people have again ignored them. I would suggest that the only ones the media have indoctrinated are each other and truly believe their own B.S.

    The west is more than capable of looking out for it's own best interests. Regarding immigration, the people have thought for themselves and formed their own opinion.
    you just don't agree with it.
 
 
 
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