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    (Original post by paul514)
    Yea adding millions of people needing a house does nothing to the property market...
    Please read again. Government policy on social housing is the problem - ie if there has been population growth why hasn't the government had a policy that copes with that?

    I don't accept that the cause of house price increases is population growth. There is no real scarcity in housing overall - people aren't living on the streets en masse. The cause of price inflation is low interest rates, that make debt more affordable, and that government policy has encouraged the rise of the buy-to-let landlord.

    If you have some evidence to disprove this, other than your obvious sarcasm, then please present it.
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    (Original post by plstudent)
    This is the original source

    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/448

    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/381

    Seems to be an interesting site otherwise, with plenty of info on the EU referendum.
    If somebody is disputing something on the basis that the source is the Daily Mail, I don't think you're going to convince them with a source called Migration Watch lol!
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Please read again. Government policy on social housing is the problem - ie if there has been population growth why hasn't the government had a policy that copes with that?

    I don't accept that the cause of house price increases is population growth. There is no real scarcity in housing overall - people aren't living on the streets en masse. The cause of price inflation is low interest rates, that make debt more affordable, and that government policy has encouraged the rise of the buy-to-let landlord.

    If you have some evidence to disprove this, other than your obvious sarcasm, then please present it.
    Typical Labor blame the victim (as long as the victim is white) tactics. The point is that without mass immigration, these problems wouldn't exist. You don't have to convince me that most politicians are incompetent anyway. For sure, I agree with that. The point is what needs to be done is what benefits the British people. That should be the guiding principle and nothing else.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    If somebody is disputing something on the basis that the source is the Daily Mail, I don't think you're going to convince them with a source called Migration Watch lol!
    Well, they love to claim the Daily Mail is not serious enough, although it is often just an excuse. It doesn't hurt to try.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    And similarly we can survive with it, like we have done for most of our history. One mustn't forget the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons (you know Anglo Saxon?). Then there were the Gaels, the Gauls, the Vikings and we haven't even got to the more recent waves of immigration which included German Jews in the war followed by Commonwealth immigrants from all over the world after it. If we are going to talk genetics in the debate about immigration, I challenge you to define a pure Brit because frankly I don't think such a thing exists.
    So you are telling me that the Saxons, for example, came from Poland, Romania, (and in the future Albiania, Turkey, etc)?

    Also, do you think the Celts kindly agreed to Saxon migration? That's not how it went down.

    The point is that every country and ethnicity has a right to preserve its culture and ethnic makeup. There is nothing wrong with that.
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    (Original post by plstudent)
    The point is that every country and ethnicity has a right to preserve its culture and ethnic makeup. There is nothing wrong with that.
    I don't believe we do have that right. I certainly isn't written in law anyway. We have the right to defend our borders, but not on ethnic or cultural grounds. I understand your sentiment, but I worry about your stance. It is a kind of fascism-light by the back door that makes me rather uneasy.
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    (Original post by plstudent)
    Typical Labor blame the victim (as long as the victim is white) tactics. The point is that without mass immigration, these problems wouldn't exist. You don't have to convince me that most politicians are incompetent anyway. For sure, I agree with that. The point is what needs to be done is what benefits the British people. That should be the guiding principle and nothing else.
    There is no scarcity of housing, look in ant estate agent window and there are plenty of houses for sale and rent. The issue is there is not a lot of housing for people with average income and that is a price issue.

    We know house prices are directly influenced by available credit, the more credit, the higher house prices go and vice versa. We saw house prices fall in 2008 during the credit crunch, nothing to do with migration.

    House prices doubled in the early 1070s when the government loosen restrictions on morgtages and fell again during the mid 1970s oil crisis, they rose again during the economic boom in the mid 1980s and crashed in 1991 in the recession leading to a lot of people in negative equity.
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    (Original post by plstudent)

    The point is that every country and ethnicity has a right to preserve its culture and ethnic makeup. There is nothing wrong with that.
    You do realise that's what third world countries say when the west criticise them for beheadings, genital mutilation, forced marriages etc,

    Countries are also not sentiment beings- the individuals, which are elected are chosen to are.
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    Is OP suggesting that in a country with an economy of more than £1tn and with tax revenues of over £700bn that i should be radically impacted by the finding that EU immigrants draw upon about 0.3% of government spending.

    There are many good reasons to leave the EU, this one is pretty weak though.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    You do realise that's what third world countries say when the west criticise them for beheadings, genital mutilation, forced marriages etc,

    Countries are also not sentiment beings- the individuals, which are elected are chosen to are.
    In fairness i agree with the person you were responding to, i simply view our cultural values as much superior to those of the people you describe and have the resolve to impose them.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    In fairness i agree with the person you were responding to, i simply view our cultural values as much superior to those of the people you describe and have the resolve to impose them.
    What would you seem to be our cultural values?

    I think what is good for our people is universally applicable to all of humanity. IE reproductive rights for women are universally good- not just for western women.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    What would you seem to be our cultural values?

    I think what is good for our people is universally applicable to all of humanity. IE reproductive rights for women are universally good- not just for western women.
    Yea of course what is good for us is good for the rest if humanity.....

    So what? It isn't up to us as a nation to impress our ways on other nations


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    (Original post by paul514)
    Yea of course what is good for us is good for the rest if humanity.....
    On an individual level sure.


    [/quote]
    So what? It isn't up to us as a nation to impress our ways on other nations
    Posted from TSR Mobile[/QUOTE]

    I'm not speaking as a nation in speaking as part of our shared humanity.

    Or are basic human rights only for westerners/ there is no difference morally between say ISIS and the UK?
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    Says a report by MigrationWatch. What did you think they were going to find? Meanwhile, studies not from an anti-immigration pressure group find that EU migrants, marginally, contributed £28.7 billion more to the public purse than they took from 2001-2011 (see table 6). People from all areas of Europe made a net contribution.

    Meanwhile, immigration raises GDP per capita and, most importantly, raises the living standards of immigrants themselves.

    (Original post by plstudent)
    Typical Labor blame the victim (as long as the victim is white) tactics. The point is that without mass immigration, these problems wouldn't exist. You don't have to convince me that most politicians are incompetent anyway. For sure, I agree with that. The point is what needs to be done is what benefits the British people. That should be the guiding principle and nothing else.
    These problems would exist without "mass immigration". The NHS is, as the King's Fund said recently, going through its most austere period in history. We spend less on healthcare than virtually every other developed country. We have a housing crisis that would still exist without "mass immigration". We've built on less than 3% of the UK's land: I say it's time we invest in our public services, housing and infrastructure and stop scapegoating immigrants and welfare mothers and others when things get a bit tough due to poor government policy.
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    (Original post by paul514)

    So what? It isn't up to us as a nation to impress our ways on other nations


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    It's up to me as an internationalist.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It's up to me as an internationalist.
    That's the point it's an ideology, we wouldn't like it if other pushed their culture on us so why should we push it on others....

    As a side point if an area in the world doesn't have the rights its citizens think it should have its up to THEM to fight for those rights just like our ancestors did.


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    (Original post by paul514)
    That's the point it's an ideology, we wouldn't like it if other pushed their culture on us so why should we push it on others....

    As a side point if an area in the world doesn't have the rights its citizens think it should have its up to THEM to fight for those rights just like our ancestors did.


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    Not even just our ancestors

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    (Original post by paul514)
    That's the point it's an ideology, we wouldn't like it if other pushed their culture on us so why should we push it on others....

    As a side point if an area in the world doesn't have the rights its citizens think it should have its up to THEM to fight for those rights just like our ancestors did.


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    Well duh. Politics is the battle of ideologies. I think it is morally the correct thing to do to push values such as human rights all round the globe. I'm a humanist. It would depend what the culture is. Plenty of culture gets pushed on us. I think there are universal values that are good to push and there are cultural values that deserve to die out.

    I'm happy to help them fight for their rights and there is a big history of people like me in this country anyway. Internationality has existed for a long time and is as old as socialism and liberalisms and probably existed in other forms way before.
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    See pro-EU/immigration folks will tell you that 1 in every 2 migrants who have come since the EU really opened up in 2004 have returned home but that's part of the problem! If migrants weren't able to come and go so free and easy they might actually make a more meaningful effort to integrate and contribute (I know many do, but the figures speak for themselves: we need them to do this moreso)
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Because the government will piss away that money anyway in some project that benefits nobody, either starting a war for no reason (AGAIN) or buying the whole cabinet new ****ing Lamborghini's. Resign yourself to the fact that governments are ****, greedy terrorists and you'll be more at ease.
    I don't exactly think this is a good argument for staying in (though I'm a remainer myself), but unfortunately you're right. All of our problems right now - housing, NHS, education - come down to our own government refusing to fund these things. It has nothing to do with the EU, our economy, immigration, or anything else - the deficit is going down, our economy is getting stronger. It's just that, instead of funding our public services and building new houses, the government is giving tax cuts to the richest people in society.

    It's just easier for people to blame immigration instead of taking responsibility and accepting they voted for a **** government. There's some deep delusion going on.

    E - Just been reading the Daily Mail article in OP.

    Ex-Cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith, who is campaigning for Brexit, said: 'We know that uncontrolled migration is placing a huge strain on the NHS, schools, and other public services'
    How naive do you actually need to be to think IDS, of all people, cares about the NHS and public services? If he says he's doing something to protect the NHS, there's a 99% chance it'll actually damage it. :rofl3: What's even happening to this country?
 
 
 
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