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    (Original post by alirs)
    shia > sunni
    thats all you have to know
    What does this mean?
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    The sunni belief is that Allah (SWT) is above the heavens and descends to the lowest heaven every night, when one-third of the night is left.
    We also believe that Allah has two feet, hands etc. however they do not resemble the normal human attributes but rather they are in a form which only befits Allah (SWT).
    uwotm8
    what do you think angels are for?

    Also Allah has two hands and feet and a body now? Are you okay? Does He only absorb/ reflect UV radiation now is that why we don't see His body? Astaghfirullah...
    Do you think if someone says they "ruled with an iron fist" it means they actually have hands made of iron? Ever heard of metaphors? My God...
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    (Original post by Kraixo)
    Yes I agree that we disagree. But do your research as far as your first paragraph is concerned, look into the tawheed and aqeedah of Ahle sunnah wal jamaah inshallah it's the only branch of islam which is on the right theology by being on the way of the Prophet SAW.
    I have sunni family members. I've spent years researching the issue of Tawheed. I'd like to ask you a few questions here dear brother

    1. Do you believe Allah swt can be described by direction and relativity , in that, he is above his throne, above the seventh heaven?
    2. Do you believe Allah swt ascends or descends - either to rise above something, or to descend ?
    3. Do you believe Allah swt is comprised and composed of constituent subunits, in that, he has hands, feet, a shin, but these parts are not like our hands, feet, and shin, but he is still comprised of different parts?
    4. Do you believe has has a form, that can be comprehended in the akhirah?


    The problem is like you said that our sources of information are different. I wonder if any of the Shia sources on the sahaba can be proven authentic with a direct chain to the Prophet. They are fabricated, to the point that they go against the Quran.
    We actually do have such chains. But if you look at it in a different way, our chains go to people like Jaffer as sadiq a.s, Muhammed al baqir a.s, Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, who are considered great scholars and ***aha by people like ibn taymiyyah. Infact, the ahlulbayt which our hadiths go through as per sunni rijal standards are considered the golden chain. Ali a.s, Hasan, Hussain a.s, Zain al Abideen a.s, Muhammed Al Baqir a.s, Jaffer as Sadiq a.s etc, all thiqa, all considered great ***aha.

    But the difference is that you do not regard our chains going to the ahlulbayt as trustworthy. This is a rijal issue. Simply stating they are fabricated is really, with all due respect, just stating something is without bringing evidence.

    What is mutah, it has no basis in islam yet shia practises it,Yes I know some of the evidences the shias try to bring forward to legalise such fornication in disuigse, but the evidences are fabricated it is a creation of the shias of a way to furfill their desires the illegal way and fabricated narrations (Fabricated narrations are a lie against the Prophet SAW which is a grave sin within it self) satisfy the masses as they follow blindly without looking for the evidences. Many shias have cut their links to shiaism once they look into sunni theology from the sunni scholars themself instead of being preached about them in their mosques where innovated practises take place.
    What if i told you companions of Rasullah s.a.w, the ones that narrated among the most hadith used to practise Mutah' and considred it halal even after the death of Rasullah s.a.w And not only that, even practised it after the death of Rasullah s.a.w You would sort of expect companions who are the closest to him to realize he had banned it , right ? I'd understand if an unknown sahaba somewhere in the far west , thousands of miles from rasullah s.a.w did not hear the prohibition, but what about men like ibn Abbas r.a, or Jabir ibn abdillah r.a who have narrated thousands of hadiths from him and are in the top ten of hadith narrators.

    Would you tell me i'm a liar?
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    (Original post by z33)
    uwotm8
    what do you think angels are for?

    Also Allah has two hands and feet and a body now? Are you okay? Does He only absorb/ reflect UV radiation now is that why we don't see His body? Astaghfirullah...
    Do you think if someone says they "ruled with an iron fist" it means they actually have hands made of iron? Ever heard of metaphors? My God...
    If you're gonna reply with that tone and attitude then I'd rather not waste my time educating your ignorant self.
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    (Original post by z33)
    uwotm8
    what do you think angels are for?

    Also Allah has two hands and feet and a body now? Are you okay? Does He only absorb/ reflect UV radiation now is that why we don't see His body? Astaghfirullah...
    Do you think if someone says they "ruled with an iron fist" it means they actually have hands made of iron? Ever heard of metaphors? My God...
    Come on, this is not a respectful way to discuss such an issue or talk to the sister with.

    (Original post by HAnwar)
    x
    My apologies for that rude tone by the other member. I will address your post later inshAllah. Hopefully we can understand each others positions better by the end of the dialouge.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    If you're gonna reply with that tone and attitude then I'd rather not waste my time educating your ignorant self.
    i was educating u m8

    Okay sorry I didn't mean to offend you so much, but I did wanna put the point of metaphors across. Educate me with why you believe it in a literal and not metaphorical sense?

    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Come on, this is not a respectful way to discuss such an issue or talk to the sister with.

    My apologies for that rude tone by the other member. I will address your post later inshAllah. Hopefully we can understand each others positions better by the end of the dialouge.
    Alright I apologised, it's just the first time I've ever heard someone give a physical form to Allah and I thought that was haraam to do that (as taught in Islamic school and by parents) so I thought it was very strange but then Googled it and seems like a lot of people believe in it so might've seemed a lil ignorant but now am intrigued.
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    (Original post by h333)
    What does this mean?
    It was an immature comment by the user, best to ignore it.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    It was an immature comment by the user, best to ignore it.
    True brother. It is ashamed we are using words like sunni, shia, sufi etc to describe ourselves. Imagine what the prophet S.A.W would be thinking if he was here. It really is sad.

    One thing I don't understand, Islam was complete in the time of the prophet S.A.W and he completed his prophethood. Then why all these additions after him, is it necesaary to look into it so deeply?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I have sunni family members. I've spent years researching the issue of Tawheed. I'd like to ask you a few questions here dear brother

    1. Do you believe Allah swt can be described by direction and relativity , in that, he is above his throne, above the seventh heaven?
    2. Do you believe Allah swt ascends or descends - either to rise above something, or to descend ?
    3. Do you believe Allah swt is comprised and composed of constituent subunits, in that, he has hands, feet, a shin, but these parts are not like our hands, feet, and shin, but he is still comprised of different parts?
    4. Do you believe has has a form, that can be comprehended in the akhirah?




    We actually do have such chains. But if you look at it in a different way, our chains go to people like Jaffer as sadiq a.s, Muhammed al baqir a.s, Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, who are considered great scholars and ***aha by people like ibn taymiyyah. Infact, the ahlulbayt which our hadiths go through as per sunni rijal standards are considered the golden chain. Ali a.s, Hasan, Hussain a.s, Zain al Abideen a.s, Muhammed Al Baqir a.s, Jaffer as Sadiq a.s etc, all thiqa, all considered great ***aha.

    But the difference is that you do not regard our chains going to the ahlulbayt as trustworthy. This is a rijal issue. Simply stating they are fabricated is really, with all due respect, just stating something is without bringing evidence.



    What if i told you companions of Rasullah s.a.w, the ones that narrated among the most hadith used to practise Mutah' and considred it halal even after the death of Rasullah s.a.w And not only that, even practised it after the death of Rasullah s.a.w You would sort of expect companions who are the closest to him to realize he had banned it , right ? I'd understand if an unknown sahaba somewhere in the far west , thousands of miles from rasullah s.a.w did not hear the prohibition, but what about men like ibn Abbas r.a, or Jabir ibn abdillah r.a who have narrated thousands of hadiths from him and are in the top ten of hadith narrators.

    Would you tell me i'm a liar?
    Brother, there are no authentic hadits favouring mutah. However there are many hadiths talking against fornication (Any kind of intimacy outside the legal Islamic marriage). By spreading such false information you are doing a grave sin.

    As far as Tawheed is concerned, whichever way Allah describes himself in the Quran is sufficient for me at the moment , I do not interpret those verses nor do I have the right to do so, I take them at face value as it's the safest thing to do for me right now, once I pursue more knowledge inshallah I will be able to give better answers to such questions. Allah the almighty and exalted is beyond comprehension.

    And Allah knows best.
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    (Original post by alirs)
    Sorry I shouldn't have said that, what I really meant was: Saudi's are insolent bigots
    Though I am not a Saudi, we should not generalise a nation like that. There are really great people Masha'Allah but then there are bad ones too.
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    (Original post by z33)
    uwotm8
    what do you think angels are for?

    Also Allah has two hands and feet and a body now? Are you okay? Does He only absorb/ reflect UV radiation now is that why we don't see His body? Astaghfirullah...
    Do you think if someone says they "ruled with an iron fist" it means they actually have hands made of iron? Ever heard of metaphors? My God...
    This was really uncalled for.

    Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
    Ahl as-Sunnah unanimously agreed on affirming and believing in all the divine attributes mentioned in the Qur’an and Sunnah, and understanding them in a true sense (as they appear to be), not as being metaphorical. But they do not discuss how any of them are. As for the innovators, Jahamis and Mu‘tazilah, and the Khaarijis, all of them deny them and do not understand any of them in a true sense (as they appear to be).

    [at-Tamheed, 7/145]

    And from islamqa:
    The one who denies the names and attributes of Allah altogether and does not ascribe them to Allah, may He be exalted, as is the case with the baatinis (esoteric sects) and the extreme Jahamis, is a kaafir who is beyond the pale of Islam, disbelieves in the Qur’an and Sunnah, and goes against the consensus (ijmaa‘) of the ummah... With regard to the one who misinterprets any of the attributes of Allah and distorts its meaning, such as those who misinterpret the attribute of the hand as referring to His power, and they say that istiwa’ (rising over the Throne) means taking control of it, and so on, he is mistaken in interpreting it in a manner other than the apparent meaning, and he is an innovator in so far as what he believes is contrary to the Sunnah, and he has strayed from the path of Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah. But he is not a disbeliever just because of this misinterpretation, and he may be excused for his efforts to understand, depending on his level of knowledge and faith.

    Ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    It is not permissible to misinterpret the divine attributes or to understand them in any way other than their apparent meaning in a manner that is befitting to Allah, or to say that knowledge of what is meant belongs only to Allah. Rather all of that comes under the heading of the beliefs of the innovators. As for Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah, they do not misinterpret the verses and hadeeths that speak of the divine attributes, and they do not understand them in a way other than the apparent meaning, and they do not say that knowledge of what is meant belongs only to Allah. Rather they believe that every meaning (of these attributes) that may be indicated is true in a manner that is befitting to Allah, may He be exalted, without likening Him to His creation.

    End quote from Majmoo‘ Fataawa Ibn Baaz, 2/106-107
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    (Original post by z33)
    i was educating u m8

    Okay sorry I didn't mean to offend you so much, but I did wanna put the point of metaphors across. Educate me with why you believe it in a literal and not metaphorical sense?



    Alright I apologised, it's just the first time I've ever heard someone give a physical form to Allah and I thought that was haraam to do that (as taught in Islamic school and by parents) so I thought it was very strange but then Googled it and seems like a lot of people believe in it so might've seemed a lil ignorant but now am intrigued.
    I also don't see why you think you're in the position to "educate" anyone. Did you even include any sources/evidence to back up your comment?
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    I also don't see why you think you're in the position to "educate" anyone. Did you even include any sources/evidence to back up your comment?
    ...is HAnwar doe? Is anyone here in a position to educate anyone?

    http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qul...nd-hands-allah

    there you go <3
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    (Original post by Kraixo)
    Brother, there are no authentic hadits on mutah. However there are many hadiths talking against fornication (Any kind of intimacy outside the legal Islamic marriage). By spreading such false information you are doing a grave sin.

    As far as Tawheed is concerned, Whichever way Allah describes himself in the Quran is sufficient for me at the moment , I do not interpret those verses nor do I have the right, I take them at face value as it's the safest thing to do for me right now, once I pursue more knowledge inshallah I will be able to give better answers to such questions. Allah the almighty and exalted is beyond comprehension.

    And Allah knows best.
    It was narrated from ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade mut’ah marriage and the meat of domestic donkeys at the time of Khaybar. According to another report, he forbade mut’ah marriage at the time of Khaybar and he forbade the meat of tame donkeys.
    Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3979; Muslim, 1407.

    It was narrated from al-Rabee’ ibn Sabrah al-Juhani that his father told him that he was with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said, “O people, I used to allow you to engage in mut’ah marriages, but now Allaah has forbidden that until the Day of Resurrection, so whoever has any wives in a mut’ah marriage, he should let her go and do not take anything of the (money) you have given them.”

    Narrated by Muslim, 1406.


    Are those not authentic?
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    It was narrated from ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade mut’ah marriage and the meat of domestic donkeys at the time of Khaybar. According to another report, he forbade mut’ah marriage at the time of Khaybar and he forbade the meat of tame donkeys.
    Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3979; Muslim, 1407.

    It was narrated from al-Rabee’ ibn Sabrah al-Juhani that his father told him that he was with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said, “O people, I used to allow you to engage in mut’ah marriages, but now Allaah has forbidden that until the Day of Resurrection, so whoever has any wives in a mut’ah marriage, he should let her go and do not take anything of the (money) you have given them.”

    Narrated by Muslim, 1406.


    Are those not authentic?
    I think he meant no authentic hadiths allowing muta'ah
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Come on, this is not a respectful way to discuss such an issue or talk to the sister with.



    My apologies for that rude tone by the other member. I will address your post later inshAllah. Hopefully we can understand each others positions better by the end of the dialouge.
    Thank you, but you shouldn't feel the need to apologise on behalf of someone else

    That's fine. I'm not very knowledgeable on this topic but I will try my best and you can get a better understanding from others as well Insha Allah.
    I don't like to delve into this too much as it's quite a dangerous topic, so we should try and tread carefully.
    (Original post by z33)
    i was educating u m8

    Okay sorry I didn't mean to offend you so much, but I did wanna put the point of metaphors across. Educate me with why you believe it in a literal and not metaphorical sense?



    Alright I apologised, it's just the first time I've ever heard someone give a physical form to Allah and I thought that was haraam to do that (as taught in Islamic school and by parents) so I thought it was very strange but then Googled it and seems like a lot of people believe in it so might've seemed a lil ignorant but now am intrigued.
    Even though it's not speaking metaphorically, I mentioned it is NOT the same as the human attributes you see everyday.
    When you see the words hand or feet, it's hard for you to imagine something which is totally different to what you normally see.

    There's some stuff online which talks about this, but I have a good book which explains this instead. I'm still trying to find the page where I've read this (it's quite a thick book), and will get back to you once I do.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I think he meant no authentic hadiths allowing muta'ah
    Oh my bad
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    This was really uncalled for.

    Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
    Ahl as-Sunnah unanimously agreed on affirming and believing in all the divine attributes mentioned in the Qur’an and Sunnah, and understanding them in a true sense (as they appear to be), not as being metaphorical. But they do not discuss how any of them are. As for the innovators, Jahamis and Mu‘tazilah, and the Khaarijis, all of them deny them and do not understand any of them in a true sense (as they appear to be).

    [at-Tamheed, 7/145]

    And from islamqa:
    The one who denies the names and attributes of Allah altogether and does not ascribe them to Allah, may He be exalted, as is the case with the baatinis (esoteric sects) and the extreme Jahamis, is a kaafir who is beyond the pale of Islam, disbelieves in the Qur’an and Sunnah, and goes against the consensus (ijmaa‘) of the ummah... With regard to the one who misinterprets any of the attributes of Allah and distorts its meaning, such as those who misinterpret the attribute of the hand as referring to His power, and they say that istiwa’ (rising over the Throne) means taking control of it, and so on, he is mistaken in interpreting it in a manner other than the apparent meaning, and he is an innovator in so far as what he believes is contrary to the Sunnah, and he has strayed from the path of Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah. But he is not a disbeliever just because of this misinterpretation, and he may be excused for his efforts to understand, depending on his level of knowledge and faith.

    Ibn Baaz (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    It is not permissible to misinterpret the divine attributes or to understand them in any way other than their apparent meaning in a manner that is befitting to Allah, or to say that knowledge of what is meant belongs only to Allah. Rather all of that comes under the heading of the beliefs of the innovators. As for Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah, they do not misinterpret the verses and hadeeths that speak of the divine attributes, and they do not understand them in a way other than the apparent meaning, and they do not say that knowledge of what is meant belongs only to Allah. Rather they believe that every meaning (of these attributes) that may be indicated is true in a manner that is befitting to Allah, may He be exalted, without likening Him to His creation.

    End quote from Majmoo‘ Fataawa Ibn Baaz, 2/106-107
    Islamqa also states that the niqaab is obligatory in Islam, that parents or husbands are to force their daughters/ wives to wear the hijab even tho "there is no compulsion in religion" - so I'm not taking their word for anything

    Ibn Baz was a wahabi extremist Muslim so also had very strong very conservative beliefs on everything and sees the prophets family as kuffaar and took everything in a literal sense.

    Mohammad Ibn Ubaidah questioned Imam Ridha [as] - successor to the prophet not any random guy - on the subject of Allah having a hand (Referencing Surah Saad Ayat 75), who [as] replied saying:"With my own hands: in this verse us purported to mean "with my potency and power."Tawheed by Al Sadooq page 153-154
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    (Original post by z33)
    Islamqa also states that the niqaab is obligatory in Islam, that parents or husbands are to force their daughters/ wives to wear the hijab even tho "there is no compulsion in religion" - so I'm not taking their word for anything

    Ibn Baz was a wahabi extremist Muslim so also had very strong very conservative beliefs on everything and sees the prophets family as kuffaar and took everything in a literal sense.

    Mohammad Ibn Ubaidah questioned Imam Ridha [as] - successor to the prophet not any random guy - on the subject of Allah having a hand (Referencing Surah Saad Ayat 75), who [as] replied saying:"With my own hands: in this verse us purported to mean "with my potency and power."Tawheed by Al Sadooq page 153-154
    It is a husband/father's duty to guide his wife/daughter and ensure she is following her religion. Hijab is compulsory in Islam.

    He wasn't an "extremist". Please provide evidence for what you're asserting. When has he said the Prophet's family are kuffar?

    I'm not going to continue arguing. People provide you with evidence and you reject each one. I also assume you're Shia, correct me if I'm wrong, so it's not surprising we disagree on this. I was simply informing you of the views Sunnis have in regards to this. It was the teaching of the Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah.
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    (Original post by yasminkattan)
    It is a husband/father's duty to guide his wife/daughter and ensure she is following her religion. Hijab is compulsory in Islam.

    He wasn't an "extremist". Please provide evidence for what you're asserting. When has he said the Prophet's family are kuffar?

    I'm not going to continue arguing. People provide you with evidence and you reject each one. I also assume you're Shia, correct me if I'm wrong, so it's not surprising we disagree on this. I was simply informing you of the views Sunnis have in regards to this. It was the teaching of the Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa‘ah.
    But the niqaab isn't...
    (and I don't believe the hijaab is but the niqaab is not compulsory in all sects I believe although Islamqa says it is)

    Not him - he follows Wahhabism and Wahabis place a strong emphasis on absolute monotheism and reject practices such as the visitation of graves of Muslim prophets, their families or sahaba and leaders.
    In 1801 and 1802, the Saudi Wahhabis under Abdul Aziz ibn Muhammad ibn Saud attacked and captured the holy Shia cities of Karbala and Najaf in Iraq and destroyed the tombs of Husayn ibn Ali who is the grandson of Muhammad, and Ali (Ali bin Abu Talib), the son-in-law of Muhammad. In 1803 and 1804 the Saudis captured Mecca and Madinah and demolished various tombs of Ahl al-Bayt and Sahabah, ancient monuments, ruins according to Wahhabis, they "removed a number of what were seen as sources or possible gateways to polytheism or shirk" - such as the tomb of Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad. In 1998 the Saudis bulldozed and poured gasoline over the grave of Aminah bint Wahb, the mother of Muhammad, causing resentment throughout the Muslim World.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

    Not arguing. Yes I am Shia. No I am not rejecting evidence as long as it's not coming from extremists groups and is coming from reliable sources such as Imam Ridha who has said that the term for hands was in fact metaphorical and he is an Imam, successor to the prophet, infallible, therefore his word trumps any fallible scholar.
 
 
 
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