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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    This is exactly the way SD is used. I suggest you spend an afternoon on the use of SD and variance. I have already explained the '29 times fairer' figure. The fact that we give such small populations so much more power is a key factor of this disparity. It also does not help that even including the big countries, UK still has the 2nd highest population per MEP figure of 28 states.
    I have spent enough time in my degree on that

    Does it make you mad they get so much more power relative to the UK?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    :facepalm:
    I really should not have to lecture you on simple statistics. If you do not like statistics feel free to rely on assumptions and false accusations such as 'you are lying'.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I have spent enough time in my degree on that

    Does it make you mad they get so much more power relative to the UK?
    Then I wonder why you asked me why SD and variance mattered on this subject.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    in my degree
    In what, creative writing? 😂
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I really should not have to lecture you on simple statistics. If you do not like statistics feel free to rely on assumptions and false accusations such as 'you are lying'.
    I never said you are lying about the statistics.

    I said you are lying about your motives.

    It's like arguing with a child.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I never said you are lying about the statistics.

    I said you are lying about your motives.

    It's like arguing with a child.
    That's right, you only said 'Stop lying you little whiner.'.

    Quote me where I lied about my motives.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    People keep saying this, but I really don't understand why. Nobody seems to know how the EU is undemocratic, they just know that it is. They don't even seem to have any idea how the EU works.

    Could someone please explain?
    Have u watched Brexit the movie? They make a very salient point about this
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    That's right, you only said 'Stop lying you little whiner.'.

    Quote me where I lied about my motives.
    You have just admitted that if the EU became 29 times more fair in your specific valuation of the meaning of fair you would consider it democratic. Note not 28.9 times, but 29 times. Because the UK is so democratic.

    Yet you have repeatedly ignored the point that votes are actually lost, other than giving some lame attempt at justifying why it could be more representative (which totally fails btw).

    Anyway, I don't need to talk to a brick wall. I actually hope you guys Leave, it would be hilarious to see your dreams crumble and nothing of what you think will be made better will come true, other than possibly curbing immigration.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    You have just admitted that if the EU became 29 times more fair in your specific valuation of the meaning of fair you would consider it democratic. Note not 28.9 times, but 29 times. Because the UK is so democratic.

    Yet you have repeatedly ignored the point that votes are actually lost, other than giving some lame attempt at justifying why it could be more representative (which totally fails btw).

    Anyway, I don't need to talk to a brick wall. I actually hope you guys Leave, it would be hilarious to see your dreams crumble and nothing of what you think will be made better will come true, other than possibly curbing immigration.
    I don't think you actually made an argument in that whole post

    If you actually are doing a degree I feel sorry for whichever university has to admit it's responsible for you
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    I don't think you actually made an argument in that whole post

    If you actually are doing a degree I feel sorry for whichever university has to admit it's responsible for you
    They even gave me a merit in the degree award. Shocker, huh?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    They even gave me a merit in the degree award. Shocker, huh?
    Very impressive, I'm sure your Women's Studies degree will come in handy 😂
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Very impressive, I'm sure your Women's Studies degree will come in handy 😂


    You really wanna go down this route?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    You have just admitted that if the EU became 29 times more fair in your specific valuation of the meaning of fair you would consider it democratic. Note not 28.9 times, but 29 times. Because the UK is so democratic.

    Yet you have repeatedly ignored the point that votes are actually lost, other than giving some lame attempt at justifying why it could be more representative (which totally fails btw).

    Anyway, I don't need to talk to a brick wall. I actually hope you guys Leave, it would be hilarious to see your dreams crumble and nothing of what you think will be made better will come true, other than possibly curbing immigration.
    No votes are 'lost', I don't think you understand this basic concept of democracy. The parliamentary system works because there is a losing candidate and a winning candidate. In essence the losing vote is just as important as the winning vote as they challenge the candidate who will eventually win to adjust his policies to represent more people in order to obtain his winning position. One could also say the same to the EU, if 35% of MEPs votes against a motion, and 65% voted for the motion, then by your logic the 35% are wasted votes. Your claim that votes are 'lost' is against the fundamental logic of democracy, unless we live in a world of 100% agreement all the time. In the real world there is no democratic system for absolute agreement, because the truth is that we never absolutely agree, otherwise it would not be a democracy.

    To be very honest, with the utmost respect I don't truly believe you actually think that votes are 'lost', at least not subconsciously. I think you are just throwing around undeveloped assumption to try to get the debate off course.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    No votes are 'lost', I don't think you understand this basic concept of democracy. The parliamentary system works because there is a losing candidate and a winning candidate. In essence the losing vote is just as important as the winning vote as they challenge the candidate who will eventually win to adjust his policies to represent more people in order to obtain his winning position. One could also say the same to the EU, if 35% of MEPs votes against a motion, and 65% voted for the motion, then by your logic the 35% are wasted votes. Your claim that votes are 'lost' is against the fundamental logic of democracy, unless we live in a world of 100% agreement all the time. In the real world there is no democratic system for absolute agreement, because the truth is that we never absolutely agree, otherwise it would not be a democracy.

    To be very honest, with the utmost respect I don't truly believe you actually think that votes are 'lost', at least not subconsciously. I think you are just throwing around undeveloped assumption to try to get the debate off course.
    What happens in Parliament is totally different situation. This is about representation of the populace. Those 35% are still represented.

    In first past the post, every single person that voted for a loser is not represented in Parliament.

    Why are you denying this? Why in fact, are you coming up with some sort bs that I don't even believe in that? You called me up for having a certain, unfriendly tone. Look at you, you are dismissive, you are patronizing.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    What happens in Parliament is totally different situation. This is about representation of the populace. Those 35% are still represented.

    In first past the post, every single person that voted for a loser is not represented in Parliament.

    Why are you denying this? Why in fact, are you coming up with some sort bs that I don't even believe in that? You called me up for having a certain, unfriendly tone. Look at you, you are dismissive, you are patronizing.
    Then if you don't use FPTP, considering my previous example of David Cameron vs Jeremy Corbyn of 55% to 45%, 45% would not be represented and the 45% would not even hold a single constituency. Are you saying that this is better?
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Then if you don't use FPTP, considering my previous example of David Cameron vs Jeremy Corbyn of 55% to 45%, 45% would not be represented and the 45% would not even hold a single constituency. Are you saying that this is better?
    No. But your example makes no sense.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    No. But your example makes no sense.
    How does it make no sense?
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    who cares if its undemocratic? you get benefits and would be worse off without said benefits thanks to the neoliberal tories

    stop whining brits
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    People keep saying this, but I really don't understand why. Nobody seems to know how the EU is undemocratic, they just know that it is. They don't even seem to have any idea how the EU works.

    Could someone please explain?
    Whenever there are issues the EU knows it wouldn't get through an electorate/a country's general public are against it circumvents their voice and just gets their country head of state to sign it off. Now I know some people are going to say we vote for head of state knowing this/way the EU is set up, etc but to my mind the democratic principle is that is you know you would not win by public vote then avoiding a public vote is undemocratic.

    Think the last time was Blair and Lisbon (EU ratification), Long and the short is if you avoid going to vote on constitutional/ratification changes that look like they might not pass the electorate you damage the idea that the institution in this case the EU is democratic. Particularly as the EU promotes itself as democratic as a virtue then flouts it when it sees it would struggle to get past what it wants to get past.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    The Commission clearly has more power than the UK civil service. I'm not sure it has more power than some EU civil services e.g. the French. I'm not sure the Commission can be regarded as the government since the creation of Tusk's office.


    However, Redmond's point is:-



    and if that is the test then clearly the UK civil service fails it.
    Once again: you know it is disingenuous to say that the commission is the equivalent of the civil service, so why do you keep doing so?

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