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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Lib Dems lost to a further right wing party who now want to raise tuition fees even further. Great example.

    Not a chance we will have PR under a tory government. FPTP favours them too much. Conversely the European Parliament is PR.

    I'd rather have legal enforcement of our rights than leave them in the hands of a right wing tory government and a public that only recently voted them into power.
    The Lib Dems fell out of favour with the Demos and now aren't politically relevant. Same goes for the BNP, Labour in Scotland, etc etc.

    The government can't do anything crazy if it ever wants to be elected again, and if it does, the new government can reverse the damage.
    The same is not true for the EU. What are you going to do if a right-wing EU Commission comes in?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    The Lib Dems fell out of favour with the Demos and now aren't politically relevant. Same goes for the BNP, Labour in Scotland, etc etc.

    The government can't do anything crazy if it ever wants to be elected again, and if it does, the new government can reverse the damage.
    The same is not true for the EU. What are you going to do if a right-wing EU Commission comes in?
    The EU guarantees things the tories cannot because it goes against their ideology.
    I'm a pragmatist.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The EU guarantees things the tories cannot because it goes against their ideology.
    I'm a pragmatist.
    “We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it” - Juncker

    The EU is sinister, it isn't going to do what you want it to, and when it does (TTIP etc) you will be powerless to stop it.
    You aren't a pragmatist, you're a coward. You're sacrificing your democracy for security and you'll get neither.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    “We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it” - Juncker

    The EU is sinister, it isn't going to do what you want it to, and when it does (TTIP etc) you will be powerless to stop it.
    You aren't a pragmatist, you're a coward. You're sacrificing your democracy for security and you'll get neither.
    And you're a wooly idealist. I'd rather have rights at work and good working conditions than an abstract 'democracy' which allows a democratically elected tory government to savage them.

    I don't trust the tories nor do I trust the public. I do however trust rights enshrined in legislation.
    If we had a centre left labour government I may want out, but we don't. We have a very right wing tory government, about to get more right wing backed up massively by the media.

    I like the security the EU gives us. I like free movement of people. I like workers' rights. I like free trade. I like the health and safety regulations. I like the single market.

    I don't like the tories and I especially don't like Boris Johnson.
    I'm voting IN.
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    I've said it in other threads, but it's a pretty sad state of affairs when the Leave campaign have to resort to trawling up nonsense conspiracy theories from the far-left about TTIP to try to win support.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't buy into the 'punish governments at the polls' malarkey.
    Not when uncle Rupert has so much sway.
    It's sad that you think the people (except for those who agree with you) are a bunch of idiots who can't think for themselves. Your distain for them really comes through when you bring up these media conspiracies. You might not believe it, but it's possible to have a different point of view by looking at an issue without being told what to think.

    Besides, it's not like you don't change your views depending on what Owen Jones or Vox writes.

    You need to start to understand that the reason why the majority of people don't agree with your views isn't because they're incapable of thinking for themselves or processing in their dumb dumb skulls that media groups are baised so they believe everything they read. It's greatly condescending to the majority of the public that you refuse to see it. People look at the issues, think about them (because they're not complete numb skulls like you think they are) and mostly don't agree with the views you hold. Get over it.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    It's sad that you think the people (except for those who agree with you) are a bunch of idiots who can't think for themselves. Your distain for them really comes through when you bring up these media conspiracies. You might not believe it, but it's possible to have a different point of view by looking at an issue without being told what to think.

    Besides, it's not like you don't change your views depending on what Owen Jones or Vox writes.

    You need to start to understand that the reason why the majority of people don't agree with your views isn't because they're incapable of thinking for themselves or processing in their dumb dumb skulls that media groups are baised so they believe everything they read. It's greatly condescending to the majority of the public that you refuse to see it. People look at the issues, think about them (because they're not complete numb skulls like you think they are) and mostly don't agree with the views you hold. Get over it.
    You're a hypocrite, considering you think everyone who disagrees with you, especially on the left is an idiot... You regularly accuse them of not being able to think for themselves. Pot kettle black Kim.

    At time you come across reasonable, at others you come accross as an EDL advocate.

    For a start I don't change my view depending on what jones writes and I don't know who vox is. Jones is much further left than I am. He's on the corbynite wing, I'm firmly in the centre, about where brown was.

    And I don't see it as condescending. I'm far more interested in politics than most people, as are you. That's not a dig at others, just saying there are different interests. Others are far more interested in football or history or science or anything really...

    What I don't get is why people like you find it so difficult to acknowledge that people are influenced by what they read, hear and see on a daily basis .

    I don't think everyone looks at issues and thinks about them greatly, I think a lot of people are very easily swayed.

    The biggest example would be the sheer number of people who blamed labour for the global financial crash despite the fact they had nothing to do with it.
    Another would be the fact that people vastly overestimate the number of people and amount spent on benefits. A yougov poll showed people estimated that 27% of benefit claims are fraudulent whereas the governments own estimates are 0.7%.


    What I find spectacular is when people think the likes of Murdoch don't have their own agenda and that people are not influenced by what they read and hear daily.
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    Let's consider a few points about the Brexit TTIP argument:

    1. It is irrelevant to the EU referendum debate. Because it will have to be ratified by all 28 member states of the European Union, it will come before our national parliament - where it will be debated, scrutinised and it is then that it is appropriate to make some noise about it. We will have a sovereign democratic vote on TTIP and it is then that we can oppose it. The TTIP argument for leaving the EU is therefore utterly insufficient and flawed. If you don't like TTIP, that doesn't mean you shouldn't vote 'Remain': the UK will get its own separate parliamentary vote on TTIP, as will the 27 other member states of the European Union.

    2. It is an awful, awful attempt to distract left-wing individuals from the right-wing dangers of Brexit. The individuals persuaded by the TTIP argument are under the deceptive illusion that only by voting for Brexit can we avoid the right-wing privatisation of everything and anything, from the NHS to Father Christmas. This is a lie and it could not be more divorced from the truth.

    If you look at who is campaigning for Brexit, the names that spark are Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and most of the Tory hard-right.

    Do not mistake my words: they individually support policies that do exactly what TTIP is alleged to threaten to the UK. These are politicians that support bringing back hanging, scrapping maternity leave, revoking same-sex marriage, privatising the NHS, abolishing the BBC, curbing the trade unions, investing heavily in fossil fuels - they have a Tory authoritarian regime of suffering and privatisation that they want to inflict on our country. The European Union stops them. They argue that the EU has too many regulations for their liking - but they're not talking about the business regulations; they're talking about the political regulations that prevent these hard-right Tory Eurosceptics from inflicting their agenda on the United Kingdom.

    There is absolutely no left-wing argument for leaving the EU in this regard: voting 'Brexit' is a mandate for the Brexiteers whose sole conviction against the EU - behind the pantomime and charades of other arguments - is that it stops them from being as authoritarian and as right-wing as they want to be. Brexit is one step closer to Tory authoritarian Britain - and if this TTIP argument has got you thinking about voting 'Leave' in order to stop right-wing rule, think twice about it. Only through remaining in the EU can we protect Britain from the full force of the Tories.
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    (Original post by Southwestern)
    Let's consider a few points about the Brexit TTIP argument:

    1. It is irrelevant to the EU referendum debate. Because it will have to be ratified by all 28 member states of the European Union, it will come before our national parliament - where it will be debated, scrutinised and it is then that it is appropriate to make some noise about it. We will have a sovereign democratic vote on TTIP and it is then that we can oppose it. The TTIP argument for leaving the EU is therefore utterly insufficient and flawed. If you don't like TTIP, that doesn't mean you shouldn't vote 'Remain': the UK will get its own separate parliamentary vote on TTIP, as will the 27 other member states of the European Union.

    2. It is an awful, awful attempt to distract left-wing individuals from the right-wing dangers of Brexit. The individuals persuaded by the TTIP argument are under the deceptive illusion that only by voting for Brexit can we avoid the right-wing privatisation of everything and anything, from the NHS to Father Christmas. This is a lie and it could not be more divorced from the truth.

    If you look at who is campaigning for Brexit, the names that spark are Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and most of the Tory hard-right.

    Do not mistake my words: they individually support policies that do exactly what TTIP is alleged to threaten to the UK. These are politicians that support bringing back hanging, scrapping maternity leave, revoking same-sex marriage, privatising the NHS, abolishing the BBC, curbing the trade unions, investing heavily in fossil fuels - they have a Tory authoritarian regime of suffering and privatisation that they want to inflict on our country. The European Union stops them. They argue that the EU has too many regulations for their liking - but they're not talking about the business regulations; they're talking about the political regulations that prevent these hard-right Tory Eurosceptics from inflicting their agenda on the United Kingdom.

    There is absolutely no left-wing argument for leaving the EU in this regard: voting 'Brexit' is a mandate for the Brexiteers whose sole conviction against the EU - behind the pantomime and charades of other arguments - is that it stops them from being as authoritarian and as right-wing as they want to be. Brexit is one step closer to Tory authoritarian Britain - and if this TTIP argument has got you thinking about voting 'Leave' in order to stop right-wing rule, think twice about it. Only through remaining in the EU can we protect Britain from the full force of the Tories.
    Bloody excellent post mate.
    Problem is the Brexit side don't do logic or reason, they simply claim it's all big one conspiracy against them and that the EU is Hitler.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    I've said it in other threads, but it's a pretty sad state of affairs when the Leave campaign have to resort to trawling up nonsense conspiracy theories from the far-left about TTIP to try to win support.
    Indeed.

    It's laughable that the leave campaign have now taken the position of social justice warriors, claiming were it not for the EU we'd be able to build all these hospitals and schools etc. Despite the fact that it's led by very right wing individuals.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Indeed.

    It's laughable that the leave campaign have now taken the position of social justice warriors, claiming were it not for the EU we'd be able to build all these hospitals and schools etc. Despite the fact that it's led by very right wing individuals.
    There is a difference between being able to do something and doing it, a distinction you seem to be failing to make here.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    There is a difference between being able to do something and doing it, a distinction you seem to be failing to make here.

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    But they have been claiming that if we leave we will pour money into the NHS, despite e fact that most of them are right wing Tories and ukippers like Farage who wish to privatise it.


    Lib is right, the Brexit camp are resorting to far left conspiracy theories.
    It's the same SJW nonsense which holds that if we get rid of trident we'd have money to pay for everything else.
    (Admittedly I was guilty of that in the past).

    If you dislike the EU fine, but don't pretend were it not for the EU that a Tory government would be pouring money into the NHS, fighting off privatisation.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Scaremongering. How naive do you have to be to think that we wouldn't be joining TTIP with a Tory government? TTIP is coming whether we leave or not, the only difference is that staying in the EU gives us more power to negotiate. The Tories would sell the whole country if given the chance.

    What the hell? We won't be part of TTIP if we leave the EU, and will have sole power over any trade deals we sign. If we vote remain, TTIP, the EU army, and Turkey's membership will soon become a reality.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    But they have been claiming that if we leave we will pour money into the NHS, despite e fact that most of them are right wing Tories and ukippers like Farage who wish to privatise it.


    Lib is right, the Brexit camp are resorting to far left conspiracy theories.
    It's the same SJW nonsense which holds that if we get rid of trident we'd have money to pay for everything else.
    (Admittedly I was guilty of that in the past).

    If you dislike the EU fine, but don't pretend were it not for the EU that a Tory government would be pouring money into the NHS, fighting off privatisation.
    Could is an important word, an important word which is used. We could also use the money to build a wall to keep the French pit, but that's not going to happen, none the less the statement holds.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Could is an important word, an important word which is used. We could also use the money to build a wall to keep the French pit, but that's not going to happen, none the less the statement holds.

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    The narrative has been 'would' rather than 'could' though.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The narrative has been 'would' rather than 'could' though.
    I've got a few bits and bobs here, first is the save our NHS leaflet, which uses could rather than would, and along with the "the facts" leaflet compares gross membership cost to hospital building cost, again, no "would," my memory of the "5 positive reasons" leaflet has it like that on there too. Political broadcast, again, coulds and not woulds.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I've got a few bits and bobs here, first is the save our NHS leaflet, which uses could rather than would, and along with the "the facts" leaflet compares gross membership cost to hospital building cost, again, no "would," my memory of the "5 positive reasons" leaflet has it like that on there too. Political broadcast, again, coulds and not woulds.
    It's fake opportunism to see right wing Tories speak of saving our NHS when they wish to privatise large chunks of it.

    It's the type of SJW nonsense associated with the far left.
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    (Original post by james813)
    What the hell? We won't be part of TTIP if we leave the EU, and will have sole power over any trade deals we sign. If we vote remain, TTIP, the EU army, and Turkey's membership will soon become a reality.
    We and every other member has a veto on turkeys membership but why let the facts get in the way of a brexiters argument?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We and every other member has a veto on turkeys membership but why let the facts get in the way of a brexiters argument?
    Implying the EU would respect the veto

    Holland vetoed Ukraine joining the EU, the EU is just refusing to accept their veto and has "delayed" their response until the day after our referendum.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Implying the EU would respect the veto

    Holland vetoed Ukraine joining the EU, the EU is just refusing to accept their veto and has "delayed" their response until the day after our referendum.
    Doesn't matter if they 'respect' it. It's enshrined in law. Any member of the EU can veto Turkish membership and many including us and Germany have said they would.

    The EU can do nothing.

    The levels of paranoia amongst Breixters is astonishing.
 
 
 
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