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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Is it unanimous? Not at all. Where's your proof for that?
    Or is this just another unevidenced claim by the leave campaign?

    Give was dreadful. He couldn't answer a single question about the economics of Brexit. None. He lied about the 350 million figure again and he seems to think he kneels better than every economist, global leader and world monetary organisations.

    Gove made a whole host of Unevidenced claims, such as claiming that the EU makes the majority of us worse off yet he couldn't offer a single piece of factual evidence.

    Of course you think he did well though, you're a brexiter. So shock horror, a massive brexiter thinks their representitive did better. Hold the back page.
    Pretty much 80-90% of media / social media polls / politcical commentators and regular people have said they thought this. Very few people have come out and said Cameron came out ahead in the debates. Infact... The bookmakers slashed Brexit odds from 4/1 to 2/1 which is a pretty huge price cut.

    As for you saying "of course i would say that" ... I am not a biased emotional simpleton like you... I have stated numerous times i think Remain will win the referendum so bang goes that "Bias" theory
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Pretty much 80-90% of media / social media polls / politcical commentators and regular people have said they thought this. Very few people have come out and said Cameron came out ahead in the debates. Infact... The bookmakers slashed Brexit odds from 4/1 to 2/1 which is a pretty huge price cut.

    As for you saying "of course i would say that" ... I am not a biased emotional simpleton like you... I have stated numerous times i think Remain will win the referendum so bang goes that "Bias" theory
    Proof please. Even though brexiters have an aversion to it.
    Can you please prove 80% of the media thought gove was better? You're just making stuff up. You are a biased simpleton.

    Also you do realise much of the media is pro Brexit- hardly objective standards.

    Typical brexiter- making up lies and then launching personal attacks at anyone who asks them to prove them.

    Of course you think gove did better, you're a brexiter.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Proof please. Even though brexiters have an aversion to it.
    Can you please prove 80% of the media thought gove was better? You're just making stuff up. You are a biased simpleton.

    Also you do realise much of the media is pro Brexit- hardly objective standards.

    Typical brexiter- making up lies and then launching personal attacks at anyone who asks them to prove them.

    Of course you think gove did better, you're a brexiter.
    You know you're a crackpot when "DA MEDIA IS CORRUPT!!! IT'S AGAINST MEEEEEEE!!! THE REPTILE CONSPIRACY IS REAL!!"
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    You know you're a crackpot when "DA MEDIA IS CORRUPT!!! IT'S AGAINST MEEEEEEE!!! THE REPTILE CONSPIRACY IS REAL!!"
    Do you have any proof that 80-90% felt gove did better? Or is this just yet another fabricated, unevdinced claim by the Brexit side?

    The Brexit side really is a combination of the hard right and hard left.
    You're far more similar than you think.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Do you have any proof that 80-90% felt gove did better? Or is this just yet another fabricated, unevdinced claim by the Brexit side?

    The Brexit side really is a combination of the hard right and hard left.
    You're far more similar than you think.
    "It is a battle in the course of which all other political lines and links will continue to be overrun and broken as it surges one way or the other. It is a battle in which the bitterest of foes of the past will stand together... the fight is about the continued existence of a nation itself, an issue which by definition all other political causes and issues whatsoever must be subordinate as to the greater which subsumes the less. In wartime, conservatives and socialists... sank their past differences and postponed their future divergent ambitions to fight together for the survival of the political nation itself - it is so, again."
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    "It is a battle in the course of which all other political lines and links will continue to be overrun and broken as it surges one way or the other. It is a battle in which the bitterest of foes of the past will stand together... the fight is about the continued existence of a nation itself, an issue which by definition all other political causes and issues whatsoever must be subordinate as to the greater which subsumes the less. In wartime, conservatives and socialists... sank their past differences and postponed their future divergent ambitions to fight together for the survival of the political nation itself - it is so, again."

    I know you think posting dramatic quotes wins you arguments but it doesn't. It makes you seen lazy.

    The sensible centrists voices are being drowned out by the hysteria being whipped up by the far right and fat left over Brexit.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I know you think posting dramatic quotes wins you arguments but it doesn't. It makes you seen lazy.

    The sensible centrists voices are being drowned out by the hysteria being whipped up by the far right and fat left over Brexit.
    He says to a centrist.

    Read the quote, it's true.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    He says to a centrist.

    Read the quote, it's true.
    No, it's not true.
    I'm proudly on the centre left but the far left seem to think leaving Europe will lead to this left wing utopia. It won't, it will lead to an increasingly right wing Tory government.

    But the idiots on the far left are happily linking arms with the Johnsons and Goves of this world.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No, it's not true.
    I'm proudly on the centre left but the far left seem to think leaving Europe will lead to this left wing utopia. It won't, it will lead to an increasingly right wing Tory government.

    But the idiots on the far left are happily linking arms with the Johnsons and Goves of this world.
    It's nothing to do with "utopias", it's to do with any of us having the democratic capacity to change the country.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    It's nothing to do with "utopias", it's to do with any of us having the democratic capacity to change the country.
    The means are less important than the ends. Democracy is not inherently just in and of itself. Democracy is a vehicle to achieving just ends. It is not in and of its led a just end.

    Leaving the EU gives the Tories more power. No thanks.
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    Faisal Islam roasted Gove waayyyy more than Cameron. The guy loves Cameron but looks like he despises Gove, sounds fair to me I still think Gove won that by a mile.

    Plus I like how Cameron got roasted by that Eng Lit student, omg it was so funny. You could see him trying to put on a smile when he was crying on the inside, never seen a person so brave, kudos to that girl.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Faisal Islam roasted Gove waayyyy more than Cameron. The guy loves Cameron but looks like he despises Gove, sounds fair to me I still think Gove won that by a mile.
    Faisal was pretty harsh on both, and Gove couldn't handle it at first. Did manage to claw it back at the end where Cameron never managed though.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The means are less important than the ends. Democracy is not inherently just in and of itself. Democracy is a vehicle to achieving just ends. It is not in and of its led a just end.

    Leaving the EU gives the Tories more power. No thanks.
    What if a tory-like party becomes the EU parliament?

    Absolutely no foresight.

    "I am willing to try and get rid of all democracy, forever, because I am currently unhappy with the government we'll have for four years."
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Faisal was pretty harsh on both, and Gove couldn't handle it at first. Did manage to claw it back at the end where Cameron never managed though.
    Lol I edited that post but just in case you didn't see it. I don't really mind if Cameron didn't get roasted by Faisal but he got roasted extra hard by that Eng Lit student omg. Best audience ever, looked like they were all gonna throw eggs at him lol.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What if a tory-like party becomes the EU parliament?

    Absolutely no foresight.

    "I am willing to try and get rid of all democracy, forever, because I am currently unhappy with the government we'll have for four years."
    EU parliament has PR voting system which is more democratic than ours. If a Tory party did dominate EU then I'd want to leave of course. The EU however has been consistently better for workers than the Tories.

    I don't want rid of all democracy, I think the EU, like the House of Lords plays a positive role.

    Democratic does not always equal better. Our judges are not elected and I think it's far better that way. Same with parts of the EU.

    Typical idealistic left winger- putting abstract concepts above pragmatism.

    While the Tories sever workers rights I hope you're happy in the knowledge we have an abstract right to freedom or something...

    I don't want abstract rights, I want real workers rights which the EU guarantees.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    EU parliament has PR voting system which is more democratic than ours. If a Tory party did dominate EU then I'd want to leave of course. The EU however has been consistently better for workers than the Tories.

    I don't want rid of all democracy, I think the EU, like the House of Lords plays a positive role.

    Democratic does not always equal better. Our judges are not elected and I think it's far better that way. Same with parts of the EU.

    Typical idealistic left winger- putting abstract concepts above pragmatism.
    Zoon Politikon, not plain old Zoon like yourself.

    If we aren't striving for these "abstract" concepts, if we're just trying to stay alive, we're no better than animals.

    "If a man has nothing to live for, he lives a protracted death."

    The same goes for society.
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    EU Commission = Power without accountability. No sir/madam, not on our watch, vote LEAVE!!



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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Zoon Politikon, not plain old Zoon like yourself.

    If we aren't striving for these "abstract" concepts, if we're just trying to stay alive, we're no better than animals.

    "If a man has nothing to live for, he lives a protracted death."

    The same goes for society.
    We are animals....
    I'd rather have actual tangible things like worker protections than abstract rights to sovereignty and freedom.

    It's all about pragmatism. The ends are more important than the means.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We are animals....
    I'd rather have actual tangible things like worker protections than abstract rights to sovereignty and freedom.

    It's all about pragmatism. The ends are more important than the means.
    We're not animals, we're supposed to be greater than that. We can think, we have minds, we can create etc etc

    Literally uncountable millions have died for the sake of this.

    Look at it this way. You're going to die one day. When you're dead, you'll leave no legacy behind. Nobody will mention your name again. You just lived until you died. You did nothing of note.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Proof please. Even though brexiters have an aversion to it.
    Can you please prove 80% of the media thought gove was better? You're just making stuff up. You are a biased simpleton.

    Also you do realise much of the media is pro Brexit- hardly objective standards.

    Typical brexiter- making up lies and then launching personal attacks at anyone who asks them to prove them.

    Of course you think gove did better, you're a brexiter.
    I cannot supply you with every single politcal tv show, and commentary, newspaper, opinion piece and poll since the two discussions. Its possible, but not worth 3 hours of my time for a hyper emotional eejit whoms firmly entrenched religious like beliefs and opinions will not be swayed.

    I wish every Remainer was like you (The influential ones) because complacency could be the key a true upset
 
 
 
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