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    (Original post by sainsburys wraps)
    Germany is one of the best countries in the modern world, Merkel knows this and she knows that our highly developed nations can take the higher toll when it comes to refugees. She went out of her way and risked her popularity to save lives, and you actually tell me she doesn't care about people?
    So why has she gone back on it then? When has she suddenly decided to limit the amount of refugees coming into Germany?


    You can't uncork a champagne bottle and expect to put it back again.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    what did I change the topic to? :|



    "not much at all" is still of clear objective substance. if you were the leader of china, and you could either advocate for something that slightly helped or slightly hindered china, why on earth would you say the latter and not the former? how is that good governance? mother of god. what is the role of a leader of a nation-state to you, exactly?



    who's changing the topic now then? :|
    and no, if I were to say anything on what you're now talking about, I'd say 1) to only focus on economics when there are a huge range of important factors, that's insane. for instance, would you give up your right to vote if it made you richer? that's an example where money isn't everything. also, remaining in the EU, won't make us richer - the EU is a stagnating trade bloc. how on earth will it help the UK to remain in a stagnating trade bloc? the swiss trade with the EU from outside the common market x5 more than the UK - yet they're basically the richest nation in europe per head.



    but remaining literally won't do that. to advocate remaining on economic ground would be purely short term in its scope. that's probably why people thought joining the euro was good - because if it helped us at all, it would have only helped for a few years, but that's all that mattered to those kinds of people
    It seems that almost every reputable bank in the UK and politician, and economist disagrees with you. The whole point of this thread is that the Brexit campaign is a bunch of ill-informed people with big mouths, and the remain campaign is all respected and successful politicians and non-politicians such as businessmen and banks from all across the world. Are you really challenging their word when it comes to the EU? Are they all incorrect on the EU being good for us? If so, you must be some very experienced economics professor or something along those lines. You can make up any argument about how the EU is anti-trade or anti-democracy, but it seems that the most experienced and powerful people in the modern world view the benefits of the EU better than having some kind of pretend control over our laws, when its the tories and their braindead voters by the coast/rural areas who have never seen the outside world who will unconditionally vote for them who dictate our laws. Democracy is overrated, and what you're suggesting democracy isn't even democracy, I trust Brussels politicians, who have no political agenda such as to appeal to tory voters or to win elections, to make laws rather than anyone over here - labour or tory. Our ability to "vote them out if they make bad laws" is overrated, we can't just expel the leaders if they make bad laws - there's nothing allowing us to challenge David Cameron if he removed some human rights laws which doesn't involve waiting some 36 months time, by which time most voters will have forgotten about it.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    So why has she gone back on it then? When has she suddenly decided to limit the amount of refugees coming into Germany?


    You can't uncork a champagne bottle and expect to put it back again.
    because other countries aren't co-operating, she wanted to lead an example and show that all countries should take a reasonable amount
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    (Original post by sainsburys wraps)
    because other countries aren't co-operating, she wanted to lead an example and show that all countries should take a reasonable amount
    Those countries are primarily the ones the immigrants are crossing, i.e Greece, Hungary, Austria, etc...

    The UK has accepted hundreds of thousands so far and continues to do so, so are Sweden, France, Spain and Italy.

    What is a "reasonable amount"?

    The immigrants will keep coming regardless of our "limits" and, for the most part, they don't intend to go back.
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    (Original post by sainsburys wraps)
    It seems that almost every reputable bank in the UK and politician, and economist disagrees with you.
    every bank and this and that politician in the late 90s wanted to join the euro though. they're always wrong on these matters. and if banks are so wise, why did they go bust in 2008? why did they need bailing out? uhhhhh

    The whole point of this thread is that the Brexit campaign is a bunch of ill-informed people with big mouths, and the remain campaign is all respected and successful politicians and non-politicians such as businessmen and banks from all across the world.
    lol "respected politicians" really?
    and you think some politicians aren't clearly in favour of brexit?

    Are you really challenging their word when it comes to the EU? Are they all incorrect on the EU being good for us? If so, you must be some very experienced economics professor or something along those lines.
    I'm not an expert, I can just clearly detect ******** when I encounter it. e.g. david cameron basically implying that we'd get WWIII from leaving the EU. even though he's a so called "respected politician" that doesn't mean he doesn't say absolutely bafflingly stupid things.

    You can make up any argument about how the EU is anti-trade or anti-democracy, but it seems that the most experienced and powerful people in the modern world view the benefits of the EU better than having some kind of pretend control over our laws, when its the tories and their braindead voters by the coast/rural areas who have never seen the outside world who will unconditionally vote for them who dictate our laws.
    1) look up "argument from authority logical fallacy"
    2) of course - your contempt for democracy matches your adoration for the EU

    Democracy is overrated, and what you're suggesting democracy isn't even democracy, I trust Brussels politicians, who have no political agenda such as to appeal to tory voters or to win elections, to make laws rather than anyone over here - labour or tory. Our ability to "vote them out if they make bad laws" is overrated, we can't just expel the leaders if they make bad laws - there's nothing allowing us to challenge David Cameron if he removed some human rights laws which doesn't involve waiting some 36 months time, by which time most voters will have forgotten about it.
    if democracy, e.g. the will and the opinions of the people annd individuals of the nation, is overrated, then why should I listen to you when apparently you're too stupid to understand how these complicated things work or should work (as you're merely an individual)? your own argument has just refuted itself
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    Those countries are primarily the ones the immigrants are crossing, i.e Greece, Hungary, Austria, etc...

    The UK has accepted hundreds of thousands so far and continues to do so, so are Sweden, France, Spain and Italy.

    What is a "reasonable amount"?

    The immigrants will keep coming regardless of our "limits" and, for the most part, they don't intend to go back.
    It looks like you're confusing legal non-EU immigration to the UK with the migrant crisis which we're isolated from due the Channel.

    The govt has full control over the former but have still accepted 330k non-EU migrants last year. They intended to reduce not increase it so it's purely down to their incompetence.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    Those countries are primarily the ones the immigrants are crossing, i.e Greece, Hungary, Austria, etc...

    The UK has accepted hundreds of thousands so far and continues to do so, so are Sweden, France, Spain and Italy.

    What is a "reasonable amount"?

    The immigrants will keep coming regardless of our "limits" and, for the most part, they don't intend to go back.
    The topic was why she's gone back on it, i answered it and your follow ups have little to do with the original argument. i suggest this goes back to Brexit and not immigration, that is a far sketchier thing but a Brexit is a clear, simple decision. Immigrants will keep coming even if we leave the EU, they cross the mediterranian in flimsy boats, trying to dodge the game and quit while we are ahead won't work, its best to work together with our European allies to prevent this crisis at its source and to evenly mitigate the distribution of refugees, we can't do this alone - shutting ourselves out from the world won't prevent consequences from reaching us, it will simply delay them.
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    (Original post by sainsburys wraps)
    The topic was why she's gone back on it, i answered it and your follow ups have little to do with the original argument. i suggest this goes back to Brexit and not immigration, that is a far sketchier thing but a Brexit is a clear, simple decision. Immigrants will keep coming even if we leave the EU, they cross the mediterranian in flimsy boats, trying to dodge the game and quit while we are ahead won't work, its best to work together with our European allies to prevent this crisis at its source and to evenly mitigate the distribution of refugees, we can't do this alone - shutting ourselves out from the world won't prevent consequences from reaching us, it will simply delay them.
    They'll keep coming to Germany, France, etc... but they'll be denied entry in the UK - thank **** for the Channel and the work of our coastguard.

    When we leave the EU the crisis won't be our problem.

    We're not shutting ourselves out from the world LOLOLOLOL :toofunny:
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    every bank and this and that politician in the late 90s wanted to join the euro though. they're always wrong on these matters. and if banks are so wise, why did they go bust in 2008? why did they need bailing out? uhhhhh



    lol "respected politicians" really?
    and you think some politicians aren't clearly in favour of brexit?



    I'm not an expert, I can just clearly detect ******** when I encounter it. e.g. david cameron basically implying that we'd get WWIII from leaving the EU. even though he's a so called "respected politician" that doesn't mean he doesn't say absolutely bafflingly stupid things.



    1) look up "argument from authority logical fallacy"
    2) of course - your contempt for democracy matches your adoration for the EU



    if democracy, e.g. the will and the opinions of the people annd individuals of the nation, is overrated, then why should I listen to you when apparently you're too stupid to understand how these complicated things work or should work (as you're merely an individual)? your own argument has just refuted itself
    Not sure why you're bringing up irrelevant economic crises into this, and also changing the topic. The topic was simply that all banks want to stay in the EU, regardless of what decisions they wanted to make decades ago. "They're always wrong" is a hollow argument, given that this is a completely separate, and more simplistic issue than an economic crash. You're overcomplicating things way too much, this is a simple "would we be better off outside the EU" and they are all saying no. this isn't nearly as complex as the 2008 economic crisis.

    Yes, respected politicians. What's your problem? Do you live under some rock where you think that all politicians are despised or something? People like David Cameron, Jeremy Corbyn and others - its simply that the voices of those who respect them are far quieter than their constant critics. proof of this is the fact that both won their corresponding elections, for PM and for labour leadership. Don't be sassy and try to tell me that they're 'not respected', all of them are.

    I don't see why Cameron's "PEACE THREAT" not "Brexit = WW3" claims aren't reasonable. If we abandon the EU, other countries will be inclined to do so as well, all of this self interest would give people like Putin the perfect opportunity to exploit it. It won't lead to a war, but it is the perfect opportunity for him to undermine the EU as he has been doing for a long time.

    And try again, I didn't undermine my own argument, you're changing the topic praying that I hit your target, I'm not going to - this is a simple matter which is that we cannot simply "out vote" the bad government like its flipping a button, so the increased democracy argument is as hollow as it would be if we remained. And as I said, I trust Brussels politicians to make decisions rather than either a labour or a tory government, who are actively trying to do things to appeal to their own supporters or to win supporters, or simply making random, stupid decisions like forcing all schools to become academies, the sugar tax, etc... who knows what could be done with these people in full control of our laws? and its not as if the EU's decided laws aren't sensible anyway.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    They'll keep coming to Germany, France, etc... but they'll be denied entry in the UK - thank **** for the Channel and the work of our coastguard.

    When we leave the EU the crisis won't be our problem.

    We're not shutting ourselves out from the world LOLOLOLOL :toofunny:
    This selfish attitude is what caused them to come over in the first place. When we leave the EU, we shut ourselves out from the migration problem, but it won't stop it from affecting us, directly or indirectly. "The crisis won't be our problem", that exact attitude caused a brutal regime to catalyse mass migration in 2011 in the first place, and now the consequences have finally caught up with us - this is proof that ignoring important foreign affairs and humanitarian crises will always have their effect on us.
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    (Original post by sainsburys wraps)
    This selfish attitude is what caused them to come over in the first place. When we leave the EU, we shut ourselves out from the migration problem, but it won't stop it from affecting us, directly or indirectly. "The crisis won't be our problem", that exact attitude caused a brutal regime to catalyse mass migration in 2011 in the first place, and now the consequences have finally caught up with us - this is proof that ignoring important foreign affairs and humanitarian crises will always have their effect on us.

    You've just paraphrased Cameron... nice.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    You've just paraphrased Cameron... nice.
    If this is what the Brexiters break down to when they get bored, no wonder the only buffoons supporting an out are Farage, IDS, Boris and gove
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    OP are you watching Gove atm?
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    “Britain is an amazing country. We’ve got the fifth biggest economy in the world. We’re a top ten manufacturer. We’ve got incredibly strong financial services. The world wants to come and do business here.
    Look at the record of inward investment. Look at the leaders beating the path to our door to come and see what’s happening with this great country’s economy.
    The argument isn’t whether Britain could survive outside the EU.
    Of course it could.”

    DAVID CAMERON – November 2015


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