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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    It's going in being processed and being rejected due to you not actually understanding my point.

    So you VOTED for your Local UKIP MEP even though you think they are useless.. makes sense! lol

    Please let me know when and how you voted for your MEP.. I must have missed that vote
    No, I voted for an SNP candidate, but UKIP won. As you say, you win some you lose some. Regardless, I got a say in who we chose and that person is representing us. If they do a poor job that's ultimately our fault.

    We voted for our MEPs in 2014.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...nited_Kingdom)

    Incidentally, we also voted for a new voting system to replace first past the post in 2011.

    Plenty of our current problems are of our own making.
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    Fair points.. can't argue with these.. I have only been interested in Politics for the last 12 months.. guess I missed my chance in 2014 and before - just goes to show how many people have no clue about these things.. hence the mess we are in maybe.
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    No, I voted for an SNP candidate, but UKIP won. As you say, you win some you lose some. Regardless, I got a say in who we chose and that person is representing us. If they do a poor job that's ultimately our fault.

    We voted for our MEPs in 2014.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...nited_Kingdom)

    Incidentally, we also voted for a new voting system to replace first past the post in 2011.

    Plenty of our current problems are of our own making.
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    Young people take their ideas from culture and instruction, while old people take their ideas from experience and personal consideration.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    No, we are not taught about the EU, it is not mentioned, and I went to school under Blair who was our most EU-loving leader ever. I am a politically engaged Europhile who studied European languages and it is only recently during this referendum, and I suppose during the Tories' strident announcements about withdrawing from the Convention on Human Rights etc, that I have learnt anything at all about the functioning of the EU.

    It is also since that time that I have begun to appreciate just how much the EU has done to protect us against successive, but especially Conservative, British governments; just how good a deal Britain gets from the EU with all the special snowflake opt-outs; and generally how desperately important it is for us to Remain.
    This would never be the case, and doesn't need to be, if people do not objective every time a leftist tries to be labour leader, and don;t allow themselves to be bullied by the media consensus in who they vote for. We could have those things within our own democracy, if we reclaim it and think for ourselves, and besides traditional media influence is waning and won't hold dos much sway in the future, I am optimistic in that regard. I also am concerned about the defeatism from 'progressives' on such issues, as though they have thrown in the towel on our own democratic process, they put they faith in something fundamentally authoritarian to give them more benevolent measures, well what if that authoritarian body is not in line with your political interests in future? You will have very little to no say in the matter.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    This would never be the case, and doesn't need to be, if people do not objective every time a leftist tries to be labour leader, and don;t allow themselves to be bullied by the media consensus in who they vote for. We could have those things within our own democracy, if we reclaim it and think for ourselves, and besides traditional media influence is waning and won't hold dos much sway in the future, I am optimistic in that regard. I also am concerned about the defeatism from 'progressives' on such issues, as though they have thrown in the towel on our own democratic process, they put they faith in something fundamentally authoritarian to give them more benevolent measures, well what if that authoritarian body is not in line with your political interests in future? You will have very little to no say in the matter.
    Then it is at that point that we might vote to Leave.

    In general, whenever there is a significant change in the way the EU operates, either the EU should be holding a referendum or if not member states should be holding one on withdrawal.

    I notice much of the Brexit rhetoric, including on campaign leaflets I have received, is about what the EU might become and how a vote for Remain is effectively a vote for greater integration. It is not: it is simply a vote for things to remain as they are. If the EU becomes something different in the future then at some point there will be a referendum on it.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Then it is at that point that we might vote to Leave.

    In general, whenever there is a significant change in the way the EU operates, either the EU should be holding a referendum or if not member states should be holding one on withdrawal.

    I notice much of the Brexit rhetoric, including on campaign leaflets I have received, is about what the EU might become and how a vote for Remain is effectively a vote for greater integration. It is not: it is simply a vote for things to remain as they are. If the EU becomes something different in the future then at some point there will be a referendum on it.
    We are already at that point or very near it in my view, and what makes you think that this is just something you can defer on, it is much more likely to be the last chance before being sucked into the vortex over ever closer union, which they have lied about, an EU flag, army and the rest. The thing I most dislike is this is kept from people, the whole nature of this project is far more elitist and undemocratic than westminster ever could be, problems though that is giving us(although I think there's an element of truth that people get the politics they deserve, we need to educate ourselves and engage more)-it basically is elites who know best for other people, wanto neglect the democratic will,a nd will lie to do it over and over again, they think they should protect the electorate from themselves or even more spookily, that we are in a 'post democratic era', something Jack Straw subscribes too.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We are already at that point or very near it in my view, and what makes you think that this is just something you can defer on, it is much more likely to be the last chance before being sucked into the vortex over ever closer union, which they have lied about, an EU flag, army and the rest. The thing I most dislike is this is kept from people, the whole nature of this project is far more elitist and undemocratic than westminster ever could be, problems though that is giving us(although I think there's an element of truth that people get the politics they deserve, we need to educate ourselves and engage more)-it basically is elites who know best for other people, wanto neglect the democratic will,a nd will lie to do it over and over again, they think they should protect the electorate from themselves or even more spookily, that we are in a 'post democratic era', something Jack Straw subscribes too.
    What is all this hysteria about an EU army? Nobody is proposing one, it really is the British equivalent of American birthers, just so completely unfounded in fact that it is almost impossible to argue against.

    The EU has given us far more referenda than the UK ever has when it has been fiddling with our constitution. Most recently the Tories were trying to co-opt MPs who had been elected to the UK parliament into a virtual English one, which is a form of coup. None of your sort were calling for a referendum then.

    The Westminster system is far more undemocratic than the EU one. It uses FPTP, has an unelected upper house and the executive is not separated from the legislature.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    Fair points.. can't argue with these.. I have only been interested in Politics for the last 12 months.. guess I missed my chance in 2014 and before - just goes to show how many people have no clue about these things.. hence the mess we are in maybe.
    And they say the bias is towards the EU and remain. You are inexperienced and have clearly drunk in from somewhere the tub-thumping trope that "nobody in Brussels is elected". Sorry but I hope you don't have the vote yet.

    Political education in Britain is so poor that I wouldn't be surprised if most of this army of Leavers thought this kind of thing.
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    Or maybe youngsters don't trust the joke that is our government outside the EU. Maybe they see things like London's air pollution problem only being tackled due to EU intervention and think "hmm, I don't want to have to wear a respirator to go out, maybe the EU isn't so bad after all". Or maybe they listen to people like Obama and think "hmm, our trade deals are pretty good as is, we don't need to mess everything up for a decade or two now do we?". Or maybe it's just the older generations being deluded, prejudiced or senile.
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    No you miss the point... seems to be a recurring trait, the reason many people think that the EU president and many others are unelected is because well.. WE don't get to vote for them. Voting for a few MEP's to sit around in Brussels does not give the British people a fair vote.. we are merely 1 Country so 1 vote essentially..

    We would like to know WHO the president or CHOICE of them are, their background and their political agendas.. and then WE should get to vote.. we can all play the euromillions each week but we can't ALL vote for a preferred Leader of the EU? Hence the term Undemocratic and all done behind closed doors.. Even the fact we have just a little fraction of power within the EU is INSANITY... lets just Govern ourselves! Simple really..

    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    And they say the bias is towards the EU and remain. You are inexperienced and have clearly drunk in from somewhere the tub-thumping trope that "nobody in Brussels is elected". Sorry but I hope you don't have the vote yet.

    Political education in Britain is so poor that I wouldn't be surprised if most of this army of Leavers thought this kind of thing.
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    Maybe the old people are just ignorant?
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    No you miss the point... seems to be a recurring trait, the reason many people think that the EU president and many others are unelected is because well.. WE don't get to vote for them. Voting for a few MEP's to sit around in Brussels does not give the British people a fair vote.. we are merely 1 Country so 1 vote essentially..

    We would like to know WHO the president or CHOICE of them are, their background and their political agendas.. and then WE should get to vote.. we can all play the euromillions each week but we can't ALL vote for a preferred Leader of the EU? Hence the term Undemocratic and all done behind closed doors.. Even the fact we have just a little fraction of power within the EU is INSANITY... lets just Govern ourselves! Simple really..
    How is this any different from the UK? You get to vote for ONE MP who represents only your constituency. 1 constituency with 1 vote. YOU don't get to vote for our PM unless you happen to live in their constituency. You do realise parties elect their own leaders?

    It seems that people who think the EU is undemocratic have no idea how our own democratic system works.
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    (Original post by Eltener)
    Or maybe youngsters don't trust the joke that is our government outside the EU. Maybe they see things like London's air pollution problem only being tackled due to EU intervention and think "hmm, I don't want to have to wear a respirator to go out, maybe the EU isn't so bad after all". Or maybe they listen to people like Obama and think "hmm, our trade deals are pretty good as is, we don't need to mess everything up for a decade or two now do we?". Or maybe it's just the older generations being deluded, prejudiced or senile.
    So true. The EU tried to introduce legislation to reduce deaths from air pollution, and our own government blocked it. And then people say we have no power in the EU????

    I'd happily give the EU MORE power. Every government the British people have elected in my life time has made the country *****er.
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    (Original post by TaipeiGhost)
    Yes

    Youngsters lack the intelligence and life experience to come to decisions on their own. If Kim Kardashian came out in favour of Remain it would somehow influence a bunch of todays idiot youth to vote to stay.

    The voting age should be raised to 25. I think by that age you've learnt enough, know enough and experienced enough to make up your own decisions in life.
    I think people in full-time jobs should only be allowed to vote. How about that?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Young people take their ideas from culture and instruction, while old people take their ideas from experience and personal consideration.
    Young people vote for hope, the old for fear.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Imagine what will happen to our NHS when we lose that £9.5b we get from the EU!
    Feck all, because the NHS budget is over 10x that.
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    In Local elections we get a vote each year to elect a Councillor in your ward.. there are 3 in each ward.. so within 3 years you could potentially have the 3 you want.. when we vote in the General Election.. we get to vote for a PARTY who we are aware who the members are this = DEMOCRACY - Not the same with the EU.. see the difference now?
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    How is this any different from the UK? You get to vote for ONE MP who represents only your constituency. 1 constituency with 1 vote. YOU don't get to vote for our PM unless you happen to live in their constituency. You do realise parties elect their own leaders?

    It seems that people who think the EU is undemocratic have no idea how our own democratic system works.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    You do realise parties elect their own leaders?
    How about you tell that to the ~250,000 Labour party members (who are just normal citizens who joined the party by paying a tiny fee) who voted directly for Corbyn?
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    (Original post by TrueDetective01)
    I think people in full-time jobs should only be allowed to vote. How about that?
    I completely agree. I'd even go as far as saying that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
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    (Original post by stevey396)
    I completely agree. I'd even go as far as saying that public sector workers shouldn't be allowed to vote either.
    I'm glad someone agrees with me, didn't think anyone on TSR would :P
 
 
 
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