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Do you think uni is value for money? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Do you think uni is/will be value for money?
    Yes
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    No
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    49.83%

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    (Original post by govandpolitics)
    you sound like you do not actually want to go to uni tbh
    You would be wrong to make that assumption.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Sure, I get the point you're making that while starting on 40-50k is a pipe dream, just because you start on 20k doesn't mean you can't have a larger salary later in life. On the other hand though, the lower you start and longer you spend on it, the more you need to earn later (as with your 65k example).

    I don't believe that engineers are excluded from the problem however. To take my own education, a 5 year engineering course. I would have approx £68k debt. This would require me to pay back approx 95k over 26 years, requiring me to have an average salary of ~£61k per year.

    Even going by the higher end salaries for engineering (starting on 30k+ and ending up around £65-70k after ~10 years) I don't think I would be able to pay this off.

    Of course many people won't pay it off and this is anticipated, but it just seems like a daft system to me and I wouldn't feel especially comfortable having that level of debt hanging over my head. I mean 95k is more than some homes cost in the UK (not London obviously!).

    Personally given few to no degrees will actually pay for themselves, I struggle to say they are good value.

    It is worth noting though (as others have) that there is more to gain from going to university than just a degree!
    I totally agree with you on the fact that there are actually very few, if any, degrees out there which will actually pay for themselves. No one is ever excluded from the bane that is student debt when they take out loans for university, or the fear of having the debt resulting from the loans hang around your head for the rest of your life once you've graduated from university.

    As you've righfully pointed out, there is so much more to university than just getting a degree. I personally will be very excited to be starting university next year not just becasue I am going to be studying something I absolutely enjoy, but also because I would have the oppurtunity to make new friends and enjoy the independence that comes with it all!

    I would regard university as being value for money. Not only for the reasons I have listed above, but because having just A levels isn't really going to land me in a very well-paying job anytime soon.
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    (Original post by Killerpenguin15)
    I totally agree with you on the fact that there are actually very few, if any, degrees out there which will actually pay for themselves. No one is ever excluded from the bane that is student debt when they take out loans for university, or the fear of having the debt resulting from the loans hang around your head for the rest of your life once you've graduated from university.

    As you've righfully pointed out, there is so much more to university than just getting a degree. I personally will be very excited to be starting university next year not just becasue I am going to be studying something I absolutely enjoy, but also because I would have the oppurtunity to make new friends and enjoy the independence that comes with it all!

    I would regard university as being value for money. Not only for the reasons I have listed above, but because having just A levels isn't really going to land me in a very well-paying job anytime soon.
    Ultimately if I was to do it again (with higher fees) I would study abroad personally. That for me ultimately makes it poor value for money, when moving abroad is a better option.

    Although I could probably apply that argument to jobs as well and it'd hold up! Just the world we live in atm.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    You again. Maybe you've never been job hunting (not that I care, and please don't quote me with your biography; also refrain from antagonising me with your :P as well) but the jobs I go for, require higher education. They require non-entry level skills, and job training is often a time consuming expensive thing. So having someone come in who already knows those things from their education is beneficial more so.

    I'm not talking about going for bartending or burger flipping and then becoming manager and general manager. That must be what you're talking about. And lmao at you wanting the whole society and world to "work their up from cleaning."

    People have ambitions and goals to be physicians, neurologists, scientists, engineers, entrepreneurs, administrators, educators, politicians, all these great things that unfortunately but understandably require higher education that is now very expensive, disproportionately so. And you quote me to say some foolishness about "working your way up from cleaning?" How do you work your way up to be an engineer? Not everyone wants to be sat on dole for years working in the garage, til they "work their way up" as one to finally become...? Yea exactly. Go "rest your case" elsehwere.
    Getting exactly what job you want is not a civil right. You don't need to go into the field you're most interested in, in order to survive.

    Regardless, the only two fields out of the ones you listed that actually require a degree are physicians and neurology, because hospitals kinda have to require you to be highly qualified before they let you be responsible for people's lives.

    It would be incredibly difficult to become a well-paid scientist in most fields without a degree, but it's still possible. You just need to work really hard, maybe volunteer at labs, and regularly write papers to boost your reputation. University would help greatly, but it's not entirely necessary, and the only reason that uni makes it so much easier to get into scientific fields is that so many scientists take the uni route because student loans exist, so employers expect you to have a degree. If the government stopped offering student loans tomorrow; then in half a decade, there would be numerous respected scientists without degrees.

    There are certainly engineering apprenticeships out there, and you can start off by doing unrelated work experience and volunteering to build your CV, while building a strong portfolio to appeal to engineering employers. You don't need to go to university to gain any of the skills needed for an engineering job. You can read books, use the Internet, and build makeshift devices at home. The only thing university gives you that you can't get otherwise is something to put on your CV.

    Obviously, entrepeneurs don't need degrees. They're self-employed; they're not going to refuse to hire themselves because they lack degrees; and they can most certainly teach themselves the skills to build whatever product or service they're founding their business upon.

    If by administrator, you mean a systems administrator; then a systems administrator most certainly does not need a degree. It's well known that you can teach yourself all of the skills needed to become an IT professional, and you can generally work yourself up to any field within the IT industry from any other position. You could even work your way up from tech support to becoming a systems administrator, and tech support's fairly easy to get into.
    If you mean a personnel administrator/manager; then I'm sure you know that plenty of people work themselves up from cleaning and retail jobs to become managers. It takes a long time, but it's entirely possible.

    A few of my teachers in school and college were unqualified, so there are obviously jobs going in at least a few places that can be attained without a formal degree. Really, there shouldn't be, but there is. And the best teachers are past professionals, so if you do well in another field and eventually earn enough money to go to uni, you can then become a great teacher with actual experience in the field you're teaching kids about.

    Most politicians have degrees because most politicians come from rich families who encourage them to go to university to get degrees. The real reason they become politicians isn't that they have degrees though. They succeed as politicians because their families have a lot of connections to influential people, and boost their political careers. Unfortunately, at that point, whether you go to university or not is irrelevant. You just need to come from a wealthy, influential family, and no amount of degrees will help you with that. On the other hand, if you work your way up and become a wealthy, influential person, then you would stand a chance.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Ultimately if I was to do it again (with higher fees) I would study abroad personally. That for me ultimately makes it poor value for money, when moving abroad is a better option.

    Although I could probably apply that argument to jobs as well and it'd hold up! Just the world we live in atm.
    Unfortunately, having just a degree per se will only ever get you through the pre-screening process at most firms that you would typically apply for. It is often said that about 60% of graduate jobs do not require any specific degree in any specific subject. It's just depressing to think that you would go through all of that debt and commitment for X number of years on a subject that you would be so passionate about just to find that you either land yourself a job which you may not be so passionate about, or a job which clearly has no prospects! Life's crazy!
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    (Original post by Jazzyboy)
    Getting exactly what job you want is not a civil right. You don't need to go into the field you're most interested in, in order to survive.

    Regardless, the only two fields out of the ones you listed that actually require a degree are physicians and neurology, because hospitals kinda have to require you to be highly qualified before they let you be responsible for people's lives.

    It would be incredibly difficult to become a well-paid scientist in most fields without a degree, but it's still possible. You just need to work really hard, maybe volunteer at labs, and regularly write papers to boost your reputation. University would help greatly, but it's not entirely necessary, and the only reason that uni makes it so much easier to get into scientific fields is that so many scientists take the uni route because student loans exist, so employers expect you to have a degree. If the government stopped offering student loans tomorrow; then in half a decade, there would be numerous respected scientists without degrees.

    There are certainly engineering apprenticeships out there, and you can start off by doing unrelated work experience and volunteering to build your CV, while building a strong portfolio to appeal to engineering employers. You don't need to go to university to gain any of the skills needed for an engineering job. You can read books, use the Internet, and build makeshift devices at home. The only thing university gives you that you can't get otherwise is something to put on your CV.

    Obviously, entrepeneurs don't need degrees. They're self-employed; they're not going to refuse to hire themselves because they lack degrees; and they can most certainly teach themselves the skills to build whatever product or service they're founding their business upon.

    If by administrator, you mean a systems administrator; then a systems administrator most certainly does not need a degree. It's well known that you can teach yourself all of the skills needed to become an IT professional, and you can generally work yourself up to any field within the IT industry from any other position. You could even work your way up from tech support to becoming a systems administrator, and tech support's fairly easy to get into.
    If you mean a personnel administrator/manager; then I'm sure you know that plenty of people work themselves up from cleaning and retail jobs to become managers. It takes a long time, but it's entirely possible.

    A few of my teachers in school and college were unqualified, so there are obviously jobs going in at least a few places that can be attained without a formal degree. Really, there shouldn't be, but there is. And the best teachers are past professionals, so if you do well in another field and eventually earn enough money to go to uni, you can then become a great teacher with actual experience in the field you're teaching kids about.

    Most politicians have degrees because most politicians come from rich families who encourage them to go to university to get degrees. The real reason they become politicians isn't that they have degrees though. They succeed as politicians because their families have a lot of connections to influential people, and boost their political careers. Unfortunately, at that point, whether you go to university or not is irrelevant. You just need to come from a wealthy, influential family, and no amount of degrees will help you with that. On the other hand, if you work your way up and become a wealthy, influential person, then you would stand a chance.
    I don't really care about the overall argument you are having, but the scientist comment is absolutely ridiculous. You can't volunteer at a lab then write a few journal articles and boom you're a scientist. Without a science degree you would be lucky to get much more than technician work setting up a lab for someone else to use.

    Science - particularly research science/journals as you suggested - is practically the definition of academia and many of them have numerous doctorates, let alone a degree.

    Also, for engineering, if you are talking a professional engineer (i.e. a chartered engineer) rather than a mechanic or technician, then you need either a masters degree or about 20-25 years experience. This is doable, but this limits how high you can go for 20-25 years and is hardly a desirable option. I know several people who've gone the apprenticeship route and they've ultimately done degrees to get past the glass ceiling.

    If the government stopped offering student loans then you'd find all our scientific talent would move abroad, that's what would happen.
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    (Original post by Killerpenguin15)
    Unfortunately, having just a degree per se will only ever get you through the pre-screening process at most firms that you would typically apply for. It is often said that about 60% of graduate jobs do not require any specific degree in any specific subject. It's just depressing to think that you would go through all of that debt and commitment for X number of years on a subject that you would be so passionate about just to find that you either land yourself a job which you may not be so passionate about, or a job which clearly has no prospects! Life's crazy!
    I was more referring to the salaries that can be earned in other countries compared to here. It gives real insight into how appreciated you are!
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Perhaps they dont realise till they have experienced it?
    Perhaps it isnt the same experience for everyone?
    Please explain, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to communicate. Some universities are worse than others, I agree, surely that's irrelevant? People apply to specific universities so can't complain if they don't feel they're getting value for money if they chose a bad uni.
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    (Original post by Loyota)
    Please explain, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to communicate. Some universities are worse than others, I agree, surely that's irrelevant? People apply to specific universities so can't complain if they don't feel they're getting value for money if they chose a bad uni.
    Your answer was dont go.

    Not as simple as that because at that age people arent ideally equipped as to whether its a good idea or not. As far as I know they arent given much support or advice to choose and it seems to be around the question, which one and which subject as opposed to whether or not to go in the first place.

    The knowledge they require as to whether it was a good choice depends upon their experience about things they wouldnt know at the time.

    They also have less life experience to know the value of money/debt and how importnat a degree is for getting a job. Some areas its essential, but others much less so.
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    (Original post by She-Ra)
    Full BBC news story

    How do you think the value of uni can be increased? Do you want more contact hours?
    There are more women than men in almost all UK universities

    ^^ That caught my eye lol xD
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    (Original post by Big white)
    There are more women than men in almost all UK universities

    ^^ That caught my eye lol xD
    Set up a separate discussion about it
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    (Original post by She-Ra)
    Set up a separate discussion about it
    This confirms the trend for women to be more likely to go to university than men - with nine out of 10 universities admitting more women than men.

    And this too xD i guess i can set up another thread about this wage gap stuff
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    As an aspiring artist I don't think Uni will be worth the money and debt I will be in. Developing my own styles and techniques can't really be taught through lectures its more of a personal journey of discovery which I can do in my own time with hard work and dedication. Honestly I don't think there is anything that Uni can give to me other than that Uni experience and maybe a glimpse into the art world and a few possibilities of recognition which isn't worth it if I can put in the hard work to earn these perks off my own back. It seem that there isn't anything the internet can't teach you at this point in time so I'm not about to be pushed into because everyone else goes to unit. I will be financially better off without it.
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    (Original post by She-Ra)
    ...
    I haven't reached university yet, so this might be completely wrong, but I see the tuition fees as paying for the qualification ("a piece of paper"), the reputation of the university, and the opportunities that arise from spending four years with world-leading researchers and like-minded people.

    As these are all qualitative, it's hard to say whether or not the cost is justified. I'd say it is, since I believe that opportunities are priceless.
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    It depends on the course you do. If you do a Mickey Mouse course at a university with a very bad reputation then perhaps not.
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    (Original post by ombtom)
    I haven't reached university yet, so this might be completely wrong, but I see the tuition fees as paying for the qualification ("a piece of paper"), the reputation of the university, and the opportunities that arise from spending four years with world-leading researchers and like-minded people.

    As these are all qualitative, it's hard to say whether or not the cost is justified. I'd say it is, since I believe that opportunities are priceless.
    You don't really spend time with researchers outside of lectures, apart from 1 or 2 the rest probably won't even know your name or recognise your face

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    (Original post by iEthan)
    Value for money? No way! £9,000 a year for limited contact hours and treatment as if we're naughty children when we even email lecturers to ask a question (source: other people that aren't me, bit biased, shhhh). It's shameful. Considering just how much I'll be paying for Uni, I will make sure to squeeze every last drop of value out of my £48,000 student loan (plus maintenance loan + 4 year degree :emo:) — nobody is going to deny me that or they'll face my wrath of me sending them passive-aggressive emails every few days. <— featuring the passive-aggressive smiley faces in odd places too…

    I do appreciate however that lecturers will be very pressed for time and will have to manage many students, however… that is at the fault of the University and their management unfortunately. That's how I see it.

    Woah, that was pretty ferocious. :lol: *exhale*
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    pls don't hurt me :emo: it's only an opinion
    Let's say a Uni has 20 courses on offer, 9k a year paid by Student finance from an average of 20 students (so ignoring internationals) in first, second and third year (ignoring 4+ year courses, placements etc).

    20*20*9000*3 = £10.8 million --- So clearly a profitable industry, given that this is an underestimation. Unlikely costs can amount to more than the amount they receive.

    ****, perhaps I should get into the Uni business!
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    (Original post by Armpits)
    Let's say a Uni has 20 courses on offer, 9k a year paid by Student finance from an average of 20 students (so ignoring internationals) in first, second and third year (ignoring 4+ year courses, placements etc).

    20*20*9000*3 = £10.8 million --- So clearly a profitable industry, given that this is an underestimation. No way costs can amount to 10.8 mil or more.

    ****, perhaps I should get into the Uni business!
    Deduct tax, wages, general costs, maintenance, faculty budgets, etc etc etc
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    What annoys me most is when people go to uni to do a course such as 'media studies' or women's studies or anything like that and then feel entitled to a high paying career because of it

    A good proportion of people who go to university would be better off going straight into employment, they could gain skills and experience instead of studying something useless.


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    (Original post by iEthan)
    Deduct tax, wages, general costs, maintenance, faculty budgets, etc etc etc
    Even so, I assumed universities have an average of 20 courses. Ucas claims there are about 37k at 370 unis. Which would average out at about 100 courses per universities.

    So let's multiply my result by 5. 10.8*5 = £54 mil/year

    Paying for the university site is a fixed cost, and an unnecessary one to the extent that you could just lease several buildings in a town. Sort of how LSE does it.

    The average lecturer probably makes about 30k, and would teach 1st second and third year (I only assumed 3 years).

    Assuming there are 3 lecturers for every course, 3*30000*100 = £9 mil

    I'll add another £10 random mil for administrative/tax related costs.


    £54 - £19 = £35 mil

    Investing £20 mil a year into faculty budgets seems fair enough.

    Leaves £15 mil to go into my Panamanian bank account.


    Note: Universities that have sites lease buildings to Starbucks etc so that's an additional income stream. And I've really underestimated income.
 
 
 
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